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	<title>Comments on: Provocation by Program: Imagining a Next-Revolution Eliza</title>
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	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: robert-depot &#187; Blog Archive</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-288441</link>
		<dc:creator>robert-depot &#187; Blog Archive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#more-1... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#more-1.." rel="nofollow">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#more-1..</a>. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Game AI Roundup Week #24 2008: 13 Stories, 4 Quotes, 1 Video, Job &#8212; AiGameDev.com</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-274326</link>
		<dc:creator>Game AI Roundup Week #24 2008: 13 Stories, 4 Quotes, 1 Video, Job &#8212; AiGameDev.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-274326</guid>
		<description>[...] Provocation by Program: Imagining a Next-Revolution Eliza [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Provocation by Program: Imagining a Next-Revolution Eliza [...]</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-269190</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ian. that&#039;s in my paper &quot;Continuous Paper&quot; which is online in a few different versions ... here&#039;s the &lt;a href=&quot;http://nickm.com/writing/essays/continuous_paper_isea.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ISEA &quot;Continuous Paper,&quot;&lt;/a&gt; which Scott graciously presented for me.

Interestingly, a slower pace of response, more imitative of human conversation than modern-day computer reply, can also be found in a system like the Apple II running some interactive fiction program that has to go to disk all the time. But it&#039;s certainly a noticeable feature of systems with a teletype interface.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian. that&#8217;s in my paper &#8220;Continuous Paper&#8221; which is online in a few different versions &#8230; here&#8217;s the <a href="http://nickm.com/writing/essays/continuous_paper_isea.html" rel="nofollow">ISEA &#8220;Continuous Paper,&#8221;</a> which Scott graciously presented for me.</p>
<p>Interestingly, a slower pace of response, more imitative of human conversation than modern-day computer reply, can also be found in a system like the Apple II running some interactive fiction program that has to go to disk all the time. But it&#8217;s certainly a noticeable feature of systems with a teletype interface.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Bogost</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-268293</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Bogost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-268293</guid>
		<description>One important aspect of Eliza, which informs both data and process, is its material context. The teletype interface that Eliza uses already sets a whole range of expectations from the user, including the idea that he or she might be talking to a human agent via a timeshare computing system. I think Nick also once observed (somewhere, where NIck?) that the program&#039;s slow output via teletype encouraged even more gap-filling than do the modern, immediate screen versions. 

What modulates the user&#039;s expectations here is not just the design of the system, but the tight coupling between that design, its material context, and its social/cultural situation. Thus the (possibly apocryphal) story of the VP who mistakenly thought Eliza was a truculent employee, or that of Weizenbaum&#039;s secretary, who eventually asked him to leave the room while she &quot;spoke&quot; to the program, despite knowing full well it was a program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One important aspect of Eliza, which informs both data and process, is its material context. The teletype interface that Eliza uses already sets a whole range of expectations from the user, including the idea that he or she might be talking to a human agent via a timeshare computing system. I think Nick also once observed (somewhere, where NIck?) that the program&#8217;s slow output via teletype encouraged even more gap-filling than do the modern, immediate screen versions. </p>
<p>What modulates the user&#8217;s expectations here is not just the design of the system, but the tight coupling between that design, its material context, and its social/cultural situation. Thus the (possibly apocryphal) story of the VP who mistakenly thought Eliza was a truculent employee, or that of Weizenbaum&#8217;s secretary, who eventually asked him to leave the room while she &#8220;spoke&#8221; to the program, despite knowing full well it was a program.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-268210</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-268210</guid>
		<description>I see - you mean that Eliza enacts/impersonates/plays/parodies a Rogerian psychotherapist. I think I would probably call that Eliza&#039;s &lt;i&gt;role&lt;/i&gt; or &lt;i&gt;script&lt;/i&gt; rather than its &lt;i&gt;context.&lt;/i&gt; That seems to me to be part of the &quot;text&quot; of Eliza/Doctor, broadly speaking, not what surrounds and situates the text. On a higher level, Eliza is an interactive computer program rather than, for instance, a character in a play who is a psychotherapist. But I think even at this point we are talking about the &lt;i&gt;form&lt;/i&gt; and not about the context.

The &lt;i&gt;context&lt;/i&gt; seems to me to be the overall cultural and individual situation in which a person has some idea of what a psychotherapist is. This could come from being in therapy, from popular representations of therapy, or perhaps from being a therapist. And, at the level of form rather than a particular role, there is a context as well. We also have expectations about and understandings of what a computer program is and what a play is.

As for the question, &lt;i&gt;What makes Eliza impersonate a psychotherapist - data or process?,&lt;/i&gt; both are clearly important. By making point 6 about process intensity, we certainly didn&#039;t mean to say that data is irrelevant, only that process is more relevant than has been acknowledged and more relevant than it is in most e-lit. Eliza/Doctor has a particular role because the program reflects the interactor&#039;s language back (mainly due to process) but also because the program produces neutral, gentle language (mainly due to data). In contrast to most electronic literature, &quot;content&quot; is not king with Eliza. Modified versions of the program with different response texts, not preserving the original wording of Weizenbaum&#039;s first program, are still &quot;Elizas.&quot; But that isn&#039;t to say that data is irrelevant. If you were to change just the data and have Eliza hurl obscenities or obsessively mention cheese, that would scuttle the program as a psychotherapist impersonator and make it into something else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see &#8211; you mean that Eliza enacts/impersonates/plays/parodies a Rogerian psychotherapist. I think I would probably call that Eliza&#8217;s <i>role</i> or <i>script</i> rather than its <i>context.</i> That seems to me to be part of the &#8220;text&#8221; of Eliza/Doctor, broadly speaking, not what surrounds and situates the text. On a higher level, Eliza is an interactive computer program rather than, for instance, a character in a play who is a psychotherapist. But I think even at this point we are talking about the <i>form</i> and not about the context.</p>
<p>The <i>context</i> seems to me to be the overall cultural and individual situation in which a person has some idea of what a psychotherapist is. This could come from being in therapy, from popular representations of therapy, or perhaps from being a therapist. And, at the level of form rather than a particular role, there is a context as well. We also have expectations about and understandings of what a computer program is and what a play is.</p>
<p>As for the question, <i>What makes Eliza impersonate a psychotherapist &#8211; data or process?,</i> both are clearly important. By making point 6 about process intensity, we certainly didn&#8217;t mean to say that data is irrelevant, only that process is more relevant than has been acknowledged and more relevant than it is in most e-lit. Eliza/Doctor has a particular role because the program reflects the interactor&#8217;s language back (mainly due to process) but also because the program produces neutral, gentle language (mainly due to data). In contrast to most electronic literature, &#8220;content&#8221; is not king with Eliza. Modified versions of the program with different response texts, not preserving the original wording of Weizenbaum&#8217;s first program, are still &#8220;Elizas.&#8221; But that isn&#8217;t to say that data is irrelevant. If you were to change just the data and have Eliza hurl obscenities or obsessively mention cheese, that would scuttle the program as a psychotherapist impersonator and make it into something else.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark M.</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-267720</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-267720</guid>
		<description>The features of context would be any aspect of the bot that signal establish its context.  So we&#039;ve been talking a lot about the ways in which bots situate themselves (and their failings).  ELIZA as Doctor offers a conversational context of an exchange with a Rogerian therapist.  The Prayer bot presents the exchange as prayers offered to a deity.  Facade, and my chapter goes into more detail here, lays out a very particular constraint of an encounter with two friends from college at the apartment 10 years after college within the confines of a 15-20 minute 2 act tragedy.  As you can see with my description -- that context is signaled by data, logic, and presentation layers together.  

My guess (and my experience from trying to create bots) is that the conceit of this narrative context -- scripted into all the data and built into the presentation layer (to give meaning to the logic or processes of the bot) is what&#039;s key to making a satisfying bot.  Satisfying to whom? the reception theorist might ask.   Satisfying as literature? we might ask.  But for now, I&#039;ll just say satisfying to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The features of context would be any aspect of the bot that signal establish its context.  So we&#8217;ve been talking a lot about the ways in which bots situate themselves (and their failings).  ELIZA as Doctor offers a conversational context of an exchange with a Rogerian therapist.  The Prayer bot presents the exchange as prayers offered to a deity.  Facade, and my chapter goes into more detail here, lays out a very particular constraint of an encounter with two friends from college at the apartment 10 years after college within the confines of a 15-20 minute 2 act tragedy.  As you can see with my description &#8212; that context is signaled by data, logic, and presentation layers together.  </p>
<p>My guess (and my experience from trying to create bots) is that the conceit of this narrative context &#8212; scripted into all the data and built into the presentation layer (to give meaning to the logic or processes of the bot) is what&#8217;s key to making a satisfying bot.  Satisfying to whom? the reception theorist might ask.   Satisfying as literature? we might ask.  But for now, I&#8217;ll just say satisfying to me.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266933</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 21:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266933</guid>
		<description>Mark, this seems like an important issue, but I&#039;m not sure what &quot;features of context&quot; you&#039;re talking about. &lt;i&gt;Terminator&lt;/i&gt; references? Help me out here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, this seems like an important issue, but I&#8217;m not sure what &#8220;features of context&#8221; you&#8217;re talking about. <i>Terminator</i> references? Help me out here?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark M.</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266494</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266494</guid>
		<description>So the question remains:

Are these features of context part of the data or part of the processes?   I think these comments prove that you can&#039;t have one at the expense of the other.  In my book project, I develop a reading of Michael Mateas&#039; addressing the context as the realm of formal affordances and the code logic as the realm of material affordances.  The latter is the set of possible input.  The former is the set of input that will make sense given the developing scenario.  (You can see some of this in my dissertation).

Again, for me the literary nature of this context and data is one of the barriers to entry into my category of electronic literature.   Once that criteria is met (and in light of that context), I can consider the roll of the processes.  But again, I feel like my position is just an inverted set of values of the one you presented in your paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the question remains:</p>
<p>Are these features of context part of the data or part of the processes?   I think these comments prove that you can&#8217;t have one at the expense of the other.  In my book project, I develop a reading of Michael Mateas&#8217; addressing the context as the realm of formal affordances and the code logic as the realm of material affordances.  The latter is the set of possible input.  The former is the set of input that will make sense given the developing scenario.  (You can see some of this in my dissertation).</p>
<p>Again, for me the literary nature of this context and data is one of the barriers to entry into my category of electronic literature.   Once that criteria is met (and in light of that context), I can consider the roll of the processes.  But again, I feel like my position is just an inverted set of values of the one you presented in your paper.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266331</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266331</guid>
		<description>Teledildonics rock!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teledildonics rock!</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266326</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266326</guid>
		<description>Ah, Scott, that explains why you were &lt;a href=&quot;http://grandtextauto.org/archives/scott_banging_air.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;banging air&quot;&lt;/a&gt; in the AR Facade exhibit at the Beall show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Scott, that explains why you were <a href="http://grandtextauto.org/archives/scott_banging_air.jpg" rel="nofollow">&#8220;banging air&#8221;</a> in the AR Facade exhibit at the Beall show.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266309</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266309</guid>
		<description>Those of us who have experienced the &quot;hot coffee&quot; sequence in Facade know that it already kicks the shit out of ELIZA. Thanks for that easter egg. It keeps me coming back for more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those of us who have experienced the &#8220;hot coffee&#8221; sequence in Facade know that it already kicks the shit out of ELIZA. Thanks for that easter egg. It keeps me coming back for more.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnson</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266227</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266227</guid>
		<description>The Eliza ref in Terminator was in one of the last episodes -- the second last, maybe? -- where she and John have a conversation in his room (sorry I can&#039;t be more specific). Basically, she talks to him as though she were an Eliza program -- inverting things he says to her, and saying things like &quot;And how do you feel about that?&quot; It was subtle, but there was one key phrase that was such an Eliza mainstay it clinched it for me. (Alas, I&#039;ve forgotten what the phrase was!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Eliza ref in Terminator was in one of the last episodes &#8212; the second last, maybe? &#8212; where she and John have a conversation in his room (sorry I can&#8217;t be more specific). Basically, she talks to him as though she were an Eliza program &#8212; inverting things he says to her, and saying things like &#8220;And how do you feel about that?&#8221; It was subtle, but there was one key phrase that was such an Eliza mainstay it clinched it for me. (Alas, I&#8217;ve forgotten what the phrase was!)</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266197</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266197</guid>
		<description>As Richard describes, it&#039;s in Grace and Trip&#039;s character design &#8212; their neurotic and self-absorbed nature helps players suspend disbelief when the NLP fails.  (And of course we write dialog responses to try to cover up as best we can, the times the NLP knows it&#039;s failing.)

Sure, there is plenty of complaint that the NLP fails &#8212; but there would perhaps been even more complaint if the characters were supposed to be good listeners, say, friends trying to be supportive of the player&#039;s own problems.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Richard describes, it&#8217;s in Grace and Trip&#8217;s character design &mdash; their neurotic and self-absorbed nature helps players suspend disbelief when the NLP fails.  (And of course we write dialog responses to try to cover up as best we can, the times the NLP knows it&#8217;s failing.)</p>
<p>Sure, there is plenty of complaint that the NLP fails &mdash; but there would perhaps been even more complaint if the characters were supposed to be good listeners, say, friends trying to be supportive of the player&#8217;s own problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Bogost</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266163</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Bogost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266163</guid>
		<description>Richard, Andrew: I&#039;m not sure I understand how Facade does something similar to Eliza and Galatea in terms of modulating the player&#039;s expectations of the agents&#039; inadequacies. In fact, isn&#039;t one of the common critiques of the aesthetic effects of the NLP+ABL infrastructure precisely that it fails to do this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, Andrew: I&#8217;m not sure I understand how Facade does something similar to Eliza and Galatea in terms of modulating the player&#8217;s expectations of the agents&#8217; inadequacies. In fact, isn&#8217;t one of the common critiques of the aesthetic effects of the NLP+ABL infrastructure precisely that it fails to do this?</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-266121</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-266121</guid>
		<description>I do &lt;a href =&quot;http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/24/new-ai-links-books-code-releases-articles-and-a-tv-show/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;watch and enjoy the show&lt;/a&gt;, and I too remember a reference to Eliza in one of the episodes.  Part of me thought, okay, yeah, the writers are just trying to show us they&#039;re all knowledgeable-and-shit about computing and AI.  But actually you&#039;re right, it probably is a notable sign of Eliza&#039;s influence on today’s popular consciousness.

Of course, one of the things I like most about &lt;i&gt;Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles&lt;/i&gt; is the fact that it has a handsome young male character who almost single-handedly invents the most powerful AI in the world in his bedroom, and happens to be named Andrew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do <a href ="http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/24/new-ai-links-books-code-releases-articles-and-a-tv-show/" rel="nofollow">watch and enjoy the show</a>, and I too remember a reference to Eliza in one of the episodes.  Part of me thought, okay, yeah, the writers are just trying to show us they&#8217;re all knowledgeable-and-shit about computing and AI.  But actually you&#8217;re right, it probably is a notable sign of Eliza&#8217;s influence on today’s popular consciousness.</p>
<p>Of course, one of the things I like most about <i>Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles</i> is the fact that it has a handsome young male character who almost single-handedly invents the most powerful AI in the world in his bedroom, and happens to be named Andrew.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-265426</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-265426</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t, but it&#039;s not off topic at all. If you let me in on what the reference is, and if Andrew and I do some sort of for-real publication based on this work, we might even cite this as an example of Eliza&#039;s influence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t, but it&#8217;s not off topic at all. If you let me in on what the reference is, and if Andrew and I do some sort of for-real publication based on this work, we might even cite this as an example of Eliza&#8217;s influence.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnson</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-265300</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-265300</guid>
		<description>Apropos of little, did anyone catch the Eliza reference on an episode of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos of little, did anyone catch the Eliza reference on an episode of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Evans</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-263953</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-263953</guid>
		<description>Another striking example of this is Emily Short&#039;s Galatea. The NPC character is an animate statue that has only been alive for a few days. These two aspects of the fiction perfectly excuse the fact that computer implementations of natural language understanding lack emotional understanding and real-world knowledge: she lacks emotional understanding because she is a statue, and she lacks real-world knowledge because she was only born yesterday!

In all these cases (Eliza, Facade, Galatea), the inadequacy is both highlighted and also excused. It is made explicit so that we can forget about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another striking example of this is Emily Short&#8217;s Galatea. The NPC character is an animate statue that has only been alive for a few days. These two aspects of the fiction perfectly excuse the fact that computer implementations of natural language understanding lack emotional understanding and real-world knowledge: she lacks emotional understanding because she is a statue, and she lacks real-world knowledge because she was only born yesterday!</p>
<p>In all these cases (Eliza, Facade, Galatea), the inadequacy is both highlighted and also excused. It is made explicit so that we can forget about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Evans</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-263272</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 23:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-263272</guid>
		<description>Um... good question... perhaps something like &quot;The computational weaknesses of the simulation are mirrored in the psychological weaknesses of the simulated protagonist&quot; ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um&#8230; good question&#8230; perhaps something like &#8220;The computational weaknesses of the simulation are mirrored in the psychological weaknesses of the simulated protagonist&#8221; ?</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-263136</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:14:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-263136</guid>
		<description>Hi Richard, you make great points, as usual!

What you say is certainly true about Eliza (and hopefully Facade too, for that matter).  

In terms of this discussion, though, identifying general traits that made Eliza important and high-impact, if we were to name another high-level characteristic, how would we describe the one you mention?  

We could call it something very general like &quot;good design&quot; or &quot;cleverly covers technical weaknesses&quot;, but those are universal design maxims, the kinds of traits one would want in any production.  

I think the traits we have identified are perhaps a bit higher-level than the particular feature of Eliza you point out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Richard, you make great points, as usual!</p>
<p>What you say is certainly true about Eliza (and hopefully Facade too, for that matter).  </p>
<p>In terms of this discussion, though, identifying general traits that made Eliza important and high-impact, if we were to name another high-level characteristic, how would we describe the one you mention?  </p>
<p>We could call it something very general like &#8220;good design&#8221; or &#8220;cleverly covers technical weaknesses&#8221;, but those are universal design maxims, the kinds of traits one would want in any production.  </p>
<p>I think the traits we have identified are perhaps a bit higher-level than the particular feature of Eliza you point out?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Evans</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-263110</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-263110</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article.

There is one other property of Eliza which was also important to its success: the simulated environment was carefully chosen to mask the weaknesses of the simulation. The Rogerian therapist (or a caricature thereof) doesn&#039;t really need to understand what the patient is saying - he just makes a merely syntactical manipulation to turn an assertion into a question. 

Facade is another example where the simulated environment was carefully chosen to cover up the simulation&#039;s problems. The characters are neurotic and self-absorbed; they are acutely aware of the modernist worry about a lack of meaning. These aspects of their personalities are perfect for covering up some of the cases where the parser doesn&#039;t quite understand what you are saying! 

(NB I do not mean this as a criticism - it is part of the success of Facade that the authors anticipated in advance the inevitable limitations of the technology, and designed a dramatic situation which de-emphasized them).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article.</p>
<p>There is one other property of Eliza which was also important to its success: the simulated environment was carefully chosen to mask the weaknesses of the simulation. The Rogerian therapist (or a caricature thereof) doesn&#8217;t really need to understand what the patient is saying &#8211; he just makes a merely syntactical manipulation to turn an assertion into a question. </p>
<p>Facade is another example where the simulated environment was carefully chosen to cover up the simulation&#8217;s problems. The characters are neurotic and self-absorbed; they are acutely aware of the modernist worry about a lack of meaning. These aspects of their personalities are perfect for covering up some of the cases where the parser doesn&#8217;t quite understand what you are saying! </p>
<p>(NB I do not mean this as a criticism &#8211; it is part of the success of Facade that the authors anticipated in advance the inevitable limitations of the technology, and designed a dramatic situation which de-emphasized them).</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-262078</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-262078</guid>
		<description>Mashups and the network strike back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mashups and the network strike back.</p>
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		<title>By: Amir Michail</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-261968</link>
		<dc:creator>Amir Michail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-261968</guid>
		<description>Check out the Chatbot Game, a Web 2.0 approach to building a chatbot:  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://chatbotgame.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://chatbotgame.com&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out the Chatbot Game, a Web 2.0 approach to building a chatbot:  <a HREF="http://chatbotgame.com" rel="nofollow">http://chatbotgame.com</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Marino</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-261437</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Marino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 23:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-261437</guid>
		<description>Mark raises a good point.  Disowning our works once we&#039;re are done might be a good move toward pushing the conversation along. I&#039;ve been having some misgivings about the humanistic implications for some of the work we&#039;ve been doing over at Bunk Magazine lately.  The Los Wikiless Timespedia seems to have caused people to misunderstand the nature of newspapers.

I think your last point is right on and speaks to Nick and Andrew&#039;s second point of criteria.  Of course, I can only imagine that at least some of the literary works we are discussing, from Blade Runner to Galatea 2.2 are in direct dialogue with ELIZA.

Mark, come over to WRT when you are done here. I&#039;ve got some assertions about Storyspace I&#039;d like to run past you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark raises a good point.  Disowning our works once we&#8217;re are done might be a good move toward pushing the conversation along. I&#8217;ve been having some misgivings about the humanistic implications for some of the work we&#8217;ve been doing over at Bunk Magazine lately.  The Los Wikiless Timespedia seems to have caused people to misunderstand the nature of newspapers.</p>
<p>I think your last point is right on and speaks to Nick and Andrew&#8217;s second point of criteria.  Of course, I can only imagine that at least some of the literary works we are discussing, from Blade Runner to Galatea 2.2 are in direct dialogue with ELIZA.</p>
<p>Mark, come over to WRT when you are done here. I&#8217;ve got some assertions about Storyspace I&#8217;d like to run past you.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-261409</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 22:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-261409</guid>
		<description>I agree. Many pages of the Unknown have no grabbing, slapping, or even heavy petting. And some of them aren&#039;t even funny. I weep nearly every time I read of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.unknownhypertext.com/dirkspirit.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Dirk&#039;s death&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. Many pages of the Unknown have no grabbing, slapping, or even heavy petting. And some of them aren&#8217;t even funny. I weep nearly every time I read of <a href="http://www.unknownhypertext.com/dirkspirit.htm" rel="nofollow">Dirk&#8217;s death</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-261373</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 21:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-261373</guid>
		<description>&gt; While the hypertexts of the Eastgate school offer a great deal to the careful reader, William Gillespie, Scott Rettberg, 
&gt; and Dirk Stratton’s The Unknown grabs and slaps the reader more or less immediately with its humor and metafiction, 
&gt; no matter what page is selected.

Though this is perhaps an archetypical ELO conference provocation, I wonder how far we&#039;d want to extend the argument.  Let&#039;s face it: humor and metafiction are an odd couple!  And do we really want to honor primarily, or exclusively, the grab and slap?  If grabbing and slapping on every page is the aesthetic goal of The Unknown, why is The Unknown so long?

It might also bear consideration that the interpretation of Weizenbaum&#039;s literary work you offer in the opening section, while shared by a number of writers including Murray, is directly contrary to the interpretation Weizenbaum himself offered.  I mention this not to revive the intentional fallacy (though in this specific case it might have some bearing) but because this circumstance seems as pertinent to the reception and success of ELIZA as do the others you adduce.  

Finally, might the true explanation for the ready dissemination of this program lie not so much in ease of portability and documentation as in the trivial nature of the underlying code -- and the ubiquitous foundation narrative of the discursive computer, for which ELIZA users had been prepared by decades of literature?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; While the hypertexts of the Eastgate school offer a great deal to the careful reader, William Gillespie, Scott Rettberg,<br />
&gt; and Dirk Stratton’s The Unknown grabs and slaps the reader more or less immediately with its humor and metafiction,<br />
&gt; no matter what page is selected.</p>
<p>Though this is perhaps an archetypical ELO conference provocation, I wonder how far we&#8217;d want to extend the argument.  Let&#8217;s face it: humor and metafiction are an odd couple!  And do we really want to honor primarily, or exclusively, the grab and slap?  If grabbing and slapping on every page is the aesthetic goal of The Unknown, why is The Unknown so long?</p>
<p>It might also bear consideration that the interpretation of Weizenbaum&#8217;s literary work you offer in the opening section, while shared by a number of writers including Murray, is directly contrary to the interpretation Weizenbaum himself offered.  I mention this not to revive the intentional fallacy (though in this specific case it might have some bearing) but because this circumstance seems as pertinent to the reception and success of ELIZA as do the others you adduce.  </p>
<p>Finally, might the true explanation for the ready dissemination of this program lie not so much in ease of portability and documentation as in the trivial nature of the underlying code &#8212; and the ubiquitous foundation narrative of the discursive computer, for which ELIZA users had been prepared by decades of literature?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stern and Nick Montfort have a provocation from ELIZA at WRT: Writer Response Theory</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/comment-page-1/#comment-261323</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stern and Nick Montfort have a provocation from ELIZA at WRT: Writer Response Theory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 19:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/05/31/provocation-by-program-imagining-a-next-revolution-eliza/#comment-261323</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Provocation by Program&#8221; Imagining a Next-Revolution ELIZA Nick Montfort and Andrew Stern http://grandtextauto.org [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Provocation by Program&#8221; Imagining a Next-Revolution ELIZA Nick Montfort and Andrew Stern <a href="http://grandtextauto.org" rel="nofollow">http://grandtextauto.org</a> [...]</p>
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