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	<title>Comments on: EP 8.4: Oz</title>
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	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/03/14/ep-84-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-222526</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I mention it here mainly because I think that version of her critique has a more clear (to me, anyway) influence on the subsequent developments in Facade, which you lead into in the next section. My reading of Facade, anyway, has it take a very strong authorial stand, where most action is &quot;directed&quot; in a coordinated way by the currently beat, with autonomous simulation of independent agents mostly filling in small details. There are some connections to the more specific techniques in the Expressivator as well, but I think the shift to &quot;we don&#039;t really care about simulating agents as an end in itself&quot; is the more fundamental one, both in Facade and other drama-management systems more generally.

It might not be worth spending much ink here on it, though, so it might just go on a wishlist of &quot;I&#039;d like someone to discuss this in more detail sometime&quot;. I think it would probably require a bigger focus on Sengers&#039;s overall argument to separate what I see as these two critiques and how they influenced other work, and that&#039;d have to be done with some thought, because I&#039;m not sure Sengers would actually agree they were as separate as I (and maybe you) see them. From the cultural-theory standpoint she comes at the problem from, the critique of agents-as-autonomous-simulation isn&#039;t just that it isn&#039;t a useful perspective for authoring interactive narrative, but that it&#039;s a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world and real people work, taking a stance against a cognitive-science-style analysis of individual humans as independent agents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mention it here mainly because I think that version of her critique has a more clear (to me, anyway) influence on the subsequent developments in Facade, which you lead into in the next section. My reading of Facade, anyway, has it take a very strong authorial stand, where most action is &#8220;directed&#8221; in a coordinated way by the currently beat, with autonomous simulation of independent agents mostly filling in small details. There are some connections to the more specific techniques in the Expressivator as well, but I think the shift to &#8220;we don&#8217;t really care about simulating agents as an end in itself&#8221; is the more fundamental one, both in Facade and other drama-management systems more generally.</p>
<p>It might not be worth spending much ink here on it, though, so it might just go on a wishlist of &#8220;I&#8217;d like someone to discuss this in more detail sometime&#8221;. I think it would probably require a bigger focus on Sengers&#8217;s overall argument to separate what I see as these two critiques and how they influenced other work, and that&#8217;d have to be done with some thought, because I&#8217;m not sure Sengers would actually agree they were as separate as I (and maybe you) see them. From the cultural-theory standpoint she comes at the problem from, the critique of agents-as-autonomous-simulation isn&#8217;t just that it isn&#8217;t a useful perspective for authoring interactive narrative, but that it&#8217;s a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world and real people work, taking a stance against a cognitive-science-style analysis of individual humans as independent agents.</p>
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		<title>By: noah</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/03/14/ep-84-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-221754</link>
		<dc:creator>noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/03/14/ep-84-oz/#comment-221754</guid>
		<description>Mark, I think you&#039;re completely right, both that it is a different critique and that it is a useful one. I actually employ some of that Sengers approach to talking about agents in my writing about &lt;i&gt;The Impermanence Agent.&lt;/i&gt; Though, at the moment, that&#039;s only in my essays -- it&#039;s not currently in the discussion of that project in Expressive Processing. I should probably at least include it as a note.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I think you&#8217;re completely right, both that it is a different critique and that it is a useful one. I actually employ some of that Sengers approach to talking about agents in my writing about <i>The Impermanence Agent.</i> Though, at the moment, that&#8217;s only in my essays &#8212; it&#8217;s not currently in the discussion of that project in Expressive Processing. I should probably at least include it as a note.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/03/14/ep-84-oz/comment-page-1/#comment-221494</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/03/14/ep-84-oz/#comment-221494</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if you need another Sengers quote, but one from the abstract of &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~phoebe/work/thesis.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;her thesis&lt;/a&gt; that I think concisely expresses this agents-as-communication-not-as-simulation point is: &quot;Instead of seeing agents as autonomous creatures with little reference to their sociocultural context, I suggest that agents can be thought of in the style of cultural studies as a form of communication between the agent&#039;s designer and the audience which will try to comprehend the agent&#039;s activity.&quot;

I&#039;m not sure if she&#039;d agree, but I tend to see this as a somewhat different criticism of traditional agent research that can stand separately from her more specific criticisms of atomization and schizophrenic agent behavior, especially in the context of interactive narrative. It could be seen as an agentsy variation of the &quot;simulate authors, not characters&quot; reaction that some people have had to Tale-Spin: that when you&#039;re designing interactive experiences, the point of agents is to communicate something from the author to the player, not to simulate them accurately as an end in itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if you need another Sengers quote, but one from the abstract of <a HREF="http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~phoebe/work/thesis.html" rel="nofollow">her thesis</a> that I think concisely expresses this agents-as-communication-not-as-simulation point is: &#8220;Instead of seeing agents as autonomous creatures with little reference to their sociocultural context, I suggest that agents can be thought of in the style of cultural studies as a form of communication between the agent&#8217;s designer and the audience which will try to comprehend the agent&#8217;s activity.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if she&#8217;d agree, but I tend to see this as a somewhat different criticism of traditional agent research that can stand separately from her more specific criticisms of atomization and schizophrenic agent behavior, especially in the context of interactive narrative. It could be seen as an agentsy variation of the &#8220;simulate authors, not characters&#8221; reaction that some people have had to Tale-Spin: that when you&#8217;re designing interactive experiences, the point of agents is to communicate something from the author to the player, not to simulate them accurately as an end in itself.</p>
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