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	<title>Comments on: EP 6.3: Modeling Human Creativity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/</link>
	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: Noah Wardrip-Fruin</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-308402</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah Wardrip-Fruin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-308402</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m slow to reply, but basically in agreement. I&#039;ve moved most of this into a footnote, for those interested in the details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m slow to reply, but basically in agreement. I&#8217;ve moved most of this into a footnote, for those interested in the details.</p>
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		<title>By: Noah Wardrip-Fruin</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-308396</link>
		<dc:creator>Noah Wardrip-Fruin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-308396</guid>
		<description>Absolutely! Thanks for the catch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely! Thanks for the catch.</p>
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		<title>By: kitsu</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-308308</link>
		<dc:creator>kitsu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-308308</guid>
		<description>Did you intend to write &quot;Tale-Spin&quot; in the second sentence of this paragraph?  Looks like it should red &quot;Minstrel&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you intend to write &#8220;Tale-Spin&#8221; in the second sentence of this paragraph?  Looks like it should red &#8220;Minstrel&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: noah</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-211110</link>
		<dc:creator>noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-211110</guid>
		<description>Yes, you&#039;re right. It should either be rewritten (something like &quot;I was surprised to see that&quot;) or dropped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, you&#8217;re right. It should either be rewritten (something like &#8220;I was surprised to see that&#8221;) or dropped.</p>
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		<title>By: noah</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-211104</link>
		<dc:creator>noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-211104</guid>
		<description>Scott, I&#039;m very glad you think so, and I appreciate how much you&#039;ve contributed to my understanding -- both in comments here and over email. 

My hope is that &lt;i&gt;Expressive Processing&lt;/i&gt; will, in turn, help broaden understanding of &lt;i&gt;Minstrel&lt;/i&gt;&#039;s significance for media authoring and thinking through wider issues about software.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I&#8217;m very glad you think so, and I appreciate how much you&#8217;ve contributed to my understanding &#8212; both in comments here and over email. </p>
<p>My hope is that <i>Expressive Processing</i> will, in turn, help broaden understanding of <i>Minstrel</i>&#8216;s significance for media authoring and thinking through wider issues about software.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Turner</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-210323</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-210323</guid>
		<description>Overall, I think you do a great job in summarizing Minstrel.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Overall, I think you do a great job in summarizing Minstrel.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Turner</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-210322</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-210322</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re correct in identifying this problem, but I think you&#039;re overlooking a couple of other problems worth mentioning.

The first is an interesting question about cognition.  If I have the knowledge to understand the problem shown in pp 24, then why would I invent that solution in the first place?  And yet as people we&#039;re constantly considering solutions and then rejecting them.  That would seem to suggest that people have different processes for &quot;creating&quot; solutions and &quot;evaluating&quot; them, and that those processes use different sets of knowledge.  That&#039;s a pretty odd and surprising result when you think about it.

Second, and probably more relevant to your discussion here, is the question of how important the hand-encoding of the knowledge is to a brittle scruffy AI system.  One defense of systems with very limited domains (like Minstrel) is &quot;real machine learning would solve the problem of limited knowledge.&quot;  But even if we had robust machine learning that could (say) read a bunch of King Arthur books and create a large case-based memory, who can say whether Minstrel could operate as well on those memories as it does on the ones I hand coded?  (I&#039;d argue that it could, but the point is that there&#039;s really nothing in Minstrel to convince anyone of that.)

I should probably stop finding faults in my own work :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re correct in identifying this problem, but I think you&#8217;re overlooking a couple of other problems worth mentioning.</p>
<p>The first is an interesting question about cognition.  If I have the knowledge to understand the problem shown in pp 24, then why would I invent that solution in the first place?  And yet as people we&#8217;re constantly considering solutions and then rejecting them.  That would seem to suggest that people have different processes for &#8220;creating&#8221; solutions and &#8220;evaluating&#8221; them, and that those processes use different sets of knowledge.  That&#8217;s a pretty odd and surprising result when you think about it.</p>
<p>Second, and probably more relevant to your discussion here, is the question of how important the hand-encoding of the knowledge is to a brittle scruffy AI system.  One defense of systems with very limited domains (like Minstrel) is &#8220;real machine learning would solve the problem of limited knowledge.&#8221;  But even if we had robust machine learning that could (say) read a bunch of King Arthur books and create a large case-based memory, who can say whether Minstrel could operate as well on those memories as it does on the ones I hand coded?  (I&#8217;d argue that it could, but the point is that there&#8217;s really nothing in Minstrel to convince anyone of that.)</p>
<p>I should probably stop finding faults in my own work :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Turner</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-210320</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-210320</guid>
		<description>&quot;...is only enabling machinery...&quot;  Sob.  All those years of work dismissed so lightly! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;is only enabling machinery&#8230;&#8221;  Sob.  All those years of work dismissed so lightly! :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Turner</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-210319</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-210319</guid>
		<description>This is pretty opaque, even to me.  I&#039;m also not sure your point (which I take it is that the author-level processes were opaque to Minstrel) is particularly relevant to the rest of this chapter.  The question of how much self-awareness you need to be creative/intelligent is interesting, but could probably just be skipped over at this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is pretty opaque, even to me.  I&#8217;m also not sure your point (which I take it is that the author-level processes were opaque to Minstrel) is particularly relevant to the rest of this chapter.  The question of how much self-awareness you need to be creative/intelligent is interesting, but could probably just be skipped over at this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Turner</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-210317</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-210317</guid>
		<description>I think the &quot;Unexpectedly&quot; in the last sentence here is confusing/unnecessary.  It isn&#039;t obvious at this point why this representation is unexpected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the &#8220;Unexpectedly&#8221; in the last sentence here is confusing/unnecessary.  It isn&#8217;t obvious at this point why this representation is unexpected.</p>
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		<title>By: Grand Text Auto &#187; Philip M Parker&#8217;s Book Generator</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/comment-page-1/#comment-210052</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Text Auto &#187; Philip M Parker&#8217;s Book Generator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/02/28/ep-63-modeling-human-creativity/#comment-210052</guid>
		<description>[...] being discussed) he recently drew my attention to an article in the Guardian titled &#8220;Automatic writing.&#8221;  Philip M Parker, a professor of management science at Insead, the international business [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] being discussed) he recently drew my attention to an article in the Guardian titled &#8220;Automatic writing.&#8221;  Philip M Parker, a professor of management science at Insead, the international business [...]</p>
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