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	<title>Comments on: EP 2.2: The Eliza Effect</title>
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	<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/</link>
	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-202314</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 10:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/#comment-202314</guid>
		<description>Oh ok, in that case I don&#039;t really have an objection. I had interpreted your comment as singling out AI systems as being particularly bad in this fake-intelligence respect, while I tend to see them as not much worse than a lot of other things that people ascribe more intelligence to than they probably should.

On the other hand, I think it&#039;s an open question what &quot;real&quot; intelligence actually is, and when even people exhibit it. AI systems have a bit of a rhetorical disadvantage here because you can open them up and say, &quot;oh, it&#039;s just doing [foo], that&#039;s not actually intelligent&quot;, while the homo sapiens source code is much more obfuscated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh ok, in that case I don&#8217;t really have an objection. I had interpreted your comment as singling out AI systems as being particularly bad in this fake-intelligence respect, while I tend to see them as not much worse than a lot of other things that people ascribe more intelligence to than they probably should.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think it&#8217;s an open question what &#8220;real&#8221; intelligence actually is, and when even people exhibit it. AI systems have a bit of a rhetorical disadvantage here because you can open them up and say, &#8220;oh, it&#8217;s just doing [foo], that&#8217;s not actually intelligent&#8221;, while the homo sapiens source code is much more obfuscated.</p>
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		<title>By: noah</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-202143</link>
		<dc:creator>noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/#comment-202143</guid>
		<description>Mark, I&#039;ve been trying to figure out if I can remember where I first heard an argument like that -- but I think I&#039;m as stumped as you are in that regard. The closest I came was remembering a book first suggested to me by Julianne Chatelaine: &lt;i&gt;The Media Equation&lt;/i&gt; by Reeves and Nass. (A short &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stcsig.org/usability/newsletter/9801-errormessages.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;essay of Chatelaine&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; includes some good summary of the arguments.) They don&#039;t get into cats and ants, but they do talk about forms of media as far afield from software as radio.

I&#039;m sure there are also other people who make similar points in other domains, and that&#039;s probably why you and I are having a hard time remembering our first encounters with these ideas. The important thing here, however, is that when I say &quot;system&quot; in the last sentence of the paragraph, that might be read as &quot;computer system.&quot; I mean it much more broadly -- which I&#039;d hoped to indicate with the non-computer example of Garfinkle&#039;s experiment, which runs along the lines of what you suggest about some therapists. It&#039;s probably a good idea for me to include a note, or some other explanatory text in the chapter, making it clear that I&#039;m not just talking about software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I&#8217;ve been trying to figure out if I can remember where I first heard an argument like that &#8212; but I think I&#8217;m as stumped as you are in that regard. The closest I came was remembering a book first suggested to me by Julianne Chatelaine: <i>The Media Equation</i> by Reeves and Nass. (A short <a href="http://www.stcsig.org/usability/newsletter/9801-errormessages.html" rel="nofollow">essay of Chatelaine&#8217;s</a> includes some good summary of the arguments.) They don&#8217;t get into cats and ants, but they do talk about forms of media as far afield from software as radio.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there are also other people who make similar points in other domains, and that&#8217;s probably why you and I are having a hard time remembering our first encounters with these ideas. The important thing here, however, is that when I say &#8220;system&#8221; in the last sentence of the paragraph, that might be read as &#8220;computer system.&#8221; I mean it much more broadly &#8212; which I&#8217;d hoped to indicate with the non-computer example of Garfinkle&#8217;s experiment, which runs along the lines of what you suggest about some therapists. It&#8217;s probably a good idea for me to include a note, or some other explanatory text in the chapter, making it clear that I&#8217;m not just talking about software.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-201218</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/#comment-201218</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the argument I&#039;m about to summarize is novel, but I can&#039;t remember offhand who I&#039;m summarizing. Basically, machines aren&#039;t unusual or particularly &quot;disturbing&quot; in this respect: When people interpret the behavior of anything presented as intelligent, whether another person, an animal, a machine, etc., they tend to explain its behavior by projecting thought processes similar to their own on it. Hence the common anthropomorphization of, say, cats.

And it&#039;s not only with machines where the projection can be wrong: the real therapist at such a visit might well be following a pretty mechanical learned script too, despite being incorrectly perceived as generating his responses via some complex cognitive process (that&#039;s one explanation for why Eliza&#039;s Doctor script worked as well as it did---that it&#039;s actually a reasonably accurate simulation of this particular interaction). And of course all sorts of instinctual hardwire animal (and human) behaviors are misperceived as the result of complex cognition---even ant behavior tends to get perceived as intelligent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the argument I&#8217;m about to summarize is novel, but I can&#8217;t remember offhand who I&#8217;m summarizing. Basically, machines aren&#8217;t unusual or particularly &#8220;disturbing&#8221; in this respect: When people interpret the behavior of anything presented as intelligent, whether another person, an animal, a machine, etc., they tend to explain its behavior by projecting thought processes similar to their own on it. Hence the common anthropomorphization of, say, cats.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s not only with machines where the projection can be wrong: the real therapist at such a visit might well be following a pretty mechanical learned script too, despite being incorrectly perceived as generating his responses via some complex cognitive process (that&#8217;s one explanation for why Eliza&#8217;s Doctor script worked as well as it did&#8212;that it&#8217;s actually a reasonably accurate simulation of this particular interaction). And of course all sorts of instinctual hardwire animal (and human) behaviors are misperceived as the result of complex cognition&#8212;even ant behavior tends to get perceived as intelligent.</p>
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		<title>By: noah</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-195522</link>
		<dc:creator>noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/#comment-195522</guid>
		<description>Yes, Eliza/Doctor was a pretty amazing project at the time. But it is also an experience with a real tendency toward breakdown, which isn&#039;t that often discussed. I&#039;m going to get into that in tomorrow&#039;s section.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Eliza/Doctor was a pretty amazing project at the time. But it is also an experience with a real tendency toward breakdown, which isn&#8217;t that often discussed. I&#8217;m going to get into that in tomorrow&#8217;s section.</p>
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		<title>By: susan</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/comment-page-1/#comment-195480</link>
		<dc:creator>susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/2008/01/31/ep-22-the-eliza-effect/#comment-195480</guid>
		<description>I must admit that looking at it now in comparison to what we have it was truly amazing, a wonder of technology.  Then again, my &#039;session&#039; with Eliza was a lot less impressive.  I likened it to a psychic reading in that it in that &#039;she&#039; asked leading questions and fed back what was given to her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must admit that looking at it now in comparison to what we have it was truly amazing, a wonder of technology.  Then again, my &#8216;session&#8217; with Eliza was a lot less impressive.  I likened it to a psychic reading in that it in that &#8216;she&#8217; asked leading questions and fed back what was given to her.</p>
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