Comments on: Mass Effect: Am I the Player Character? http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/ A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art. Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:44:40 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Grand Text Auto » New AI Links: Books, Code Releases, Articles and a TV Show http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-191299 Grand Text Auto » New AI Links: Books, Code Releases, Articles and a TV Show Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:09:57 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-191299 [...] month’s Culture Clash column has a good critique of dialog in games, paralleling Noah’s discussion of Mass Effect from last [...] [...] month’s Culture Clash column has a good critique of dialog in games, paralleling Noah’s discussion of Mass Effect from last [...]

]]> By: Brianwh http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-189229 Brianwh Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:12:57 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-189229 A similar method was used in Tex Murphy: The Pandora Directive.(1996?) You choose the attitude of what Tex will say, then he speaks the lines that express that attitude. Eg, "ATTEMPT AN APOLOGY/PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG/LIGHTEN THE MOOD". It didn't work as fluidly as Mass Effect's system, though. A similar method was used in Tex Murphy: The Pandora Directive.(1996?)
You choose the attitude of what Tex will say, then he speaks the lines that express that attitude. Eg, “ATTEMPT AN APOLOGY/PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG/LIGHTEN THE MOOD”.

It didn’t work as fluidly as Mass Effect’s system, though.

]]> By: LinkoGRAfia (3) « Altergranie http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-159394 LinkoGRAfia (3) « Altergranie Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:08:54 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-159394 [...] Mass Effect: Am I the Player Character. Tym razem grze, której być może ostatnio poświęcam zbyt dużo uwagi, przygląda się Noah Wardrip-Fruin, specjalista od komunikacji i literatury cyfrowej z Uniwersytetu w San Diego. Warto przeczytać również komentarze do tekstu. Sporo ciekawych spostrzeżeń m.in. na temat systemów dialogowych w grach. [...] [...] Mass Effect: Am I the Player Character. Tym razem grze, której być może ostatnio poświęcam zbyt dużo uwagi, przygląda się Noah Wardrip-Fruin, specjalista od komunikacji i literatury cyfrowej z Uniwersytetu w San Diego. Warto przeczytać również komentarze do tekstu. Sporo ciekawych spostrzeżeń m.in. na temat systemów dialogowych w grach. [...]

]]> By: Nat http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-158858 Nat Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:12:50 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-158858 Wondering if you saw the review/'words' in Play mag about Mass Effect. I loved the game and found it very emotionally engaging. HOpe you're enjoying it too. Wondering if you saw the review/’words’ in Play mag about Mass Effect.

I loved the game and found it very emotionally engaging. HOpe you’re enjoying it too.

]]> By: Chris Lewis http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-158011 Chris Lewis Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:10:12 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-158011 I heartily enjoyed the Mass Effect puppeteering, particularly in contrast to the other post-choose-exactly-what-I'm-going-to-say technique of "The Silent Protagonist" (funny in Half-Life 1. No longer.) As Andrew pointed out: when you can't say exactly what you want to, the option is distracting and frustrating. Mass Effect doesn't entirely avoid this, but it does better. It tends to fall down on the Renegade path. When the player is trying to go the route of "break fingers until he talks!" it's all too easy to accidentally end the conversation and have a shoot-out, denying the player any opportunity to hear any more of the dialogue. That's frustrating, and I personally began to avoid those options just in case (coupled with a terribly poor checkpoint system, I didn't want to take the risk). Quick braindump: You could add further subtlety by having an emotional reaction to what is being said, controlled by the stick. Pushing forward would lean the character forward, silently indicating your interest in the current topic. Lean back or look around and you are becoming tired of the conversation, and the topic moves to something else. A button for an aggressive action and one for a comforting action and you'd be all set. Of course, having the manpower to write all the variations for that is an entirely different matter! I heartily enjoyed the Mass Effect puppeteering, particularly in contrast to the other post-choose-exactly-what-I’m-going-to-say technique of “The Silent Protagonist” (funny in Half-Life 1. No longer.)

As Andrew pointed out: when you can’t say exactly what you want to, the option is distracting and frustrating. Mass Effect doesn’t entirely avoid this, but it does better. It tends to fall down on the Renegade path. When the player is trying to go the route of “break fingers until he talks!” it’s all too easy to accidentally end the conversation and have a shoot-out, denying the player any opportunity to hear any more of the dialogue. That’s frustrating, and I personally began to avoid those options just in case (coupled with a terribly poor checkpoint system, I didn’t want to take the risk).

Quick braindump: You could add further subtlety by having an emotional reaction to what is being said, controlled by the stick. Pushing forward would lean the character forward, silently indicating your interest in the current topic. Lean back or look around and you are becoming tired of the conversation, and the topic moves to something else. A button for an aggressive action and one for a comforting action and you’d be all set. Of course, having the manpower to write all the variations for that is an entirely different matter!

]]> By: noah http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-157784 noah Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:43:16 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-157784 Ash, yes, that's a good connection. Mass Effect is somewhat like Fahrenheit / Indigo Prophecy in choosing between short types of things to say, which are then performed. But as gameplay it also feels pretty different. Part of this is due to the fact that this is also F/IP's interface for choosing physical actions. But more significant is the time-sensitive element of dialogue choices in F/IP, which makes you choose one before a timer runs out. ME, on the other hand, while it allows you to choose the next thing to say before the NPC finishes talking, is also willing to wait indefinitely (you could go get a snack, and the characters act like you answered normally). Of course, ME also won't let you pause the game during an NPC conversation (don't remember if this was true of F/IP)... Ash, yes, that’s a good connection. Mass Effect is somewhat like Fahrenheit / Indigo Prophecy in choosing between short types of things to say, which are then performed. But as gameplay it also feels pretty different. Part of this is due to the fact that this is also F/IP’s interface for choosing physical actions. But more significant is the time-sensitive element of dialogue choices in F/IP, which makes you choose one before a timer runs out. ME, on the other hand, while it allows you to choose the next thing to say before the NPC finishes talking, is also willing to wait indefinitely (you could go get a snack, and the characters act like you answered normally). Of course, ME also won’t let you pause the game during an NPC conversation (don’t remember if this was true of F/IP)…

]]> By: The Plush Apocalypse » Blog Archive » This is why we can’t have nice things. http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-157532 The Plush Apocalypse » Blog Archive » This is why we can’t have nice things. Thu, 13 Dec 2007 03:54:14 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-157532 [...] Mass Effect does some interesting exploration into how the player’s role interacts with their character (such as how your chosen backstory [...] [...] Mass Effect does some interesting exploration into how the player’s role interacts with their character (such as how your chosen backstory [...]

]]> By: Justin Gibbs http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-157248 Justin Gibbs Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:03:08 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-157248 I’m not a fan of canned dialogue although I understand it’s almost a requirement with consoles and their audience - which is worried more about game play then story in the end. As pointed out in the post and comments, canned dialogue doesn’t allow the player to embody the character. Interestingly one PC World review thought Mass Effect was paramount to slogging through an old-school adventure game: http://blogs.pcworld.com/gameon/archives/005095.html Could have been the game play itself, or maybe it was that the canned dialogue got old. I’m not a fan of canned dialogue although I understand it’s almost a requirement with consoles and their audience – which is worried more about game play then story in the end. As pointed out in the post and comments, canned dialogue doesn’t allow the player to embody the character.

Interestingly one PC World review thought Mass Effect was paramount to slogging through an old-school adventure game:
http://blogs.pcworld.com/gameon/archives/005095.html

Could have been the game play itself, or maybe it was that the canned dialogue got old.

]]> By: Ash http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-157242 Ash Wed, 12 Dec 2007 15:42:36 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-157242 I didn't play Mass Effect, but from the article conversation mechanic looks a bit like what we saw in Fahrenheit - is that true? I didn’t play Mass Effect, but from the article conversation mechanic looks a bit like what we saw in Fahrenheit – is that true?

]]> By: andrew http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-156088 andrew Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:29:39 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-156088 Working within the limitations of dialog menus, it seems like a nice innovation. It's like communicating in discourse acts, such as "agree", "tell me more", "insult", "ask about the sword" — overlapping with IF a bit now, no? The distancing of the player from the character helps alleviate the "I would never say that" problem with dialog menus, since the player is now not literally choosing what to say. It also allows for more efficient, fluid gameplay, since the player can quickly read short-worded choices, and the scene can continue without pausing. In Max's opinion above, a lack of pauses in the enactment of the scene increases immersion (edit: at least I think that's what Max means!). I'd agree with that. Yet I'd argue that the distancing that dialog menus (in general) force upon the player — now furthered by these more abstract menu choices — decreases immersion in a broader sense, as Noah alludes to. When multiple-choice menus are used in choosing dialog or events, IMO, the player herself "isn't there" in a natural sense (forced to choose from a limited menu), and is instead somewhat above the action, like a puppeteer. Noah, the Gamasutra article you link to about the writing process for <i>Mass Effect</i> was really interesting, thanks for that. Working within the limitations of dialog menus, it seems like a nice innovation. It’s like communicating in discourse acts, such as “agree”, “tell me more”, “insult”, “ask about the sword” — overlapping with IF a bit now, no?

The distancing of the player from the character helps alleviate the “I would never say that” problem with dialog menus, since the player is now not literally choosing what to say.

It also allows for more efficient, fluid gameplay, since the player can quickly read short-worded choices, and the scene can continue without pausing. In Max’s opinion above, a lack of pauses in the enactment of the scene increases immersion (edit: at least I think that’s what Max means!). I’d agree with that.

Yet I’d argue that the distancing that dialog menus (in general) force upon the player — now furthered by these more abstract menu choices — decreases immersion in a broader sense, as Noah alludes to. When multiple-choice menus are used in choosing dialog or events, IMO, the player herself “isn’t there” in a natural sense (forced to choose from a limited menu), and is instead somewhat above the action, like a puppeteer.

Noah, the Gamasutra article you link to about the writing process for Mass Effect was really interesting, thanks for that.

]]> By: Mark http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-156047 Mark Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:42:29 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-156047 In a completely different way and different genre, I've had less than stellar experiences with games that try to move the player from direct-interaction to influence-a-computational-system interaction, since it ends up feeling like a weird exercise in herding AI. That was basically <i>Master of Orion 3</i>'s answer to micromanagement problems in increasingly complex 4X games: have a set of "governors" that do play the game in the player's stead, and have the player influence them with high-level goals instead of actually doing the nitty-gritty things like constructing buildings and allocating planetary resources. It does make for an interesting conceptual gray area between games and fully automatic non-interactive simulations, though. In a completely different way and different genre, I’ve had less than stellar experiences with games that try to move the player from direct-interaction to influence-a-computational-system interaction, since it ends up feeling like a weird exercise in herding AI. That was basically Master of Orion 3’s answer to micromanagement problems in increasingly complex 4X games: have a set of “governors” that do play the game in the player’s stead, and have the player influence them with high-level goals instead of actually doing the nitty-gritty things like constructing buildings and allocating planetary resources.

It does make for an interesting conceptual gray area between games and fully automatic non-interactive simulations, though.

]]> By: noah http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-155913 noah Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:38:19 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-155913 Max, I think it's an intriguing trend. And I'm also interested in the fact that KotOR's combat system could be seen as more along the "influencing" line than Mass Effect's. Frankly, I think ME would probably feel like a more completely successful game -- to me -- if they'd found a way to update the influencing combat mode to go along with the new influencing conversation mode. Darius, nice connection. I don't think I've seen that one made before. Patrick, do you mean the cardinal directions are used in conversation, other kinds of action, or both? Max, I think it’s an intriguing trend. And I’m also interested in the fact that KotOR’s combat system could be seen as more along the “influencing” line than Mass Effect’s. Frankly, I think ME would probably feel like a more completely successful game — to me — if they’d found a way to update the influencing combat mode to go along with the new influencing conversation mode.

Darius, nice connection. I don’t think I’ve seen that one made before.

Patrick, do you mean the cardinal directions are used in conversation, other kinds of action, or both?

]]> By: Patrick http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-155691 Patrick Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:43:58 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-155691 I'm actually designing a web-game right now that moves along these lines, where the N,S,E,W options have a consistent archetype or tenor to them, kind of similar to the: ?,!, Wildcard concept Darius referenced, but with more depth. http://www.thewildwest.org/native_american/religion/Directions.html I’m actually designing a web-game right now that moves along these lines, where the N,S,E,W options have a consistent archetype or tenor to them, kind of similar to the: ?,!, Wildcard concept Darius referenced, but with more depth.

http://www.thewildwest.org/native_american/religion/Directions.html

]]> By: Darius K. http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-155620 Darius K. Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:15:36 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-155620 Reminds me of the conversation system in Sam & Max Hit the Road. You'd be given three options during conversation: ?, !, and [Max, a "wildcard"]. It wasn't real-time, but the basic idea was the same, and it really helped with the game's humor that the punchlines your character delivered would actually a a surprise. Reminds me of the conversation system in Sam & Max Hit the Road. You’d be given three options during conversation: ?, !, and [Max, a "wildcard"]. It wasn’t real-time, but the basic idea was the same, and it really helped with the game’s humor that the punchlines your character delivered would actually a a surprise.

]]> By: Max Battcher http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/comment-page-1/#comment-155152 Max Battcher Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:28:26 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/2007/12/09/mass-effect-am-i-the-player-character/#comment-155152 It's a nice little "trend" right now moving away from "exact controls" to subtler "character influencing controls". I noticed it a lot in Assassin's Creed. The so-called "puppeteering" interface of Assassin's Creed is similar to Mass Effect's conversation system here (and also designed to attempt to yield a smoother more cinematic experience to game play) and because of it I found myself in Assassin's Creed more often blaming the character (rather than myself) for faults than I do in other games. It's good to see some experimentation and it will be interesting to see how these mechanics continue to evolve. If they were more common I don't believe we would see as much of an immersion break from them. It’s a nice little “trend” right now moving away from “exact controls” to subtler “character influencing controls”. I noticed it a lot in Assassin’s Creed. The so-called “puppeteering” interface of Assassin’s Creed is similar to Mass Effect’s conversation system here (and also designed to attempt to yield a smoother more cinematic experience to game play) and because of it I found myself in Assassin’s Creed more often blaming the character (rather than myself) for faults than I do in other games. It’s good to see some experimentation and it will be interesting to see how these mechanics continue to evolve. If they were more common I don’t believe we would see as much of an immersion break from them.

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