Comments on: Media Machines http://grandtextauto.org/2007/01/30/media-machines/ A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art. Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:44:40 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Mapping Narratives, ITP Seminar, Fall 2007 » Corner: Presentation and Links http://grandtextauto.org/2007/01/30/media-machines/comment-page-1/#comment-133929 Mapping Narratives, ITP Seminar, Fall 2007 » Corner: Presentation and Links Thu, 11 Oct 2007 03:52:46 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1424#comment-133929 [...] s) Fossil Rivers (from BLDGBLOG) Redistricting Game Finally, Noah Wardrip-Fruin on “authoring new processes.” Comments» no comments yet - be the first? [...] [...] s) Fossil Rivers (from BLDGBLOG) Redistricting Game Finally, Noah Wardrip-Fruin on “authoring new processes.”

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]]> By: noah http://grandtextauto.org/2007/01/30/media-machines/comment-page-1/#comment-106884 noah Fri, 02 Feb 2007 19:30:57 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1424#comment-106884 Yes, of course you're right. Universal computation isn't the same as being a metamedium -- to start with, it enables many things besides media. I'll try to find some good way to note that, and also point people to some appropriate resources. Yes, of course you’re right. Universal computation isn’t the same as being a metamedium — to start with, it enables many things besides media. I’ll try to find some good way to note that, and also point people to some appropriate resources.

]]> By: nick http://grandtextauto.org/2007/01/30/media-machines/comment-page-1/#comment-106582 nick Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:23:05 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1424#comment-106582 No, I don't think most readers will progress on to Swiss Army knife and duct tape reveries. But computers are capable of simulating machines in a variety of ways, and I think that their abilities as universal computers and as metamedia are significantly distinct, and worth distinguishing. Someone might reasonably assume that a computer is an audio tape + motion picture player for reasons that have more to do with the Swiss Army knife than with universal computation. That said, explaining what universal computation <i>is</i> doesn't mean proving in detail that all modern computers have this capability; similarly, the metamedium quality and its connection to multimedia hardware can probably be related quickly. I imagine there may be some way to cover these issues quickly, at this point or elsewhere. No, I don’t think most readers will progress on to Swiss Army knife and duct tape reveries. But computers are capable of simulating machines in a variety of ways, and I think that their abilities as universal computers and as metamedia are significantly distinct, and worth distinguishing. Someone might reasonably assume that a computer is an audio tape + motion picture player for reasons that have more to do with the Swiss Army knife than with universal computation.

That said, explaining what universal computation is doesn’t mean proving in detail that all modern computers have this capability; similarly, the metamedium quality and its connection to multimedia hardware can probably be related quickly. I imagine there may be some way to cover these issues quickly, at this point or elsewhere.

]]> By: noah http://grandtextauto.org/2007/01/30/media-machines/comment-page-1/#comment-106575 noah Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:44:30 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1424#comment-106575 Nick, thanks for your thoughtful comment! It won't surprise you to hear that I agree with you entirely. I'm just trying to find an accessible, quick way to introduce people to, in particular, the first two ideas you mention: (1) a general purpose computer is general purpose and (2) this lets it be a platform for the operations of many existing and new types of media. Obviously, lots of machines can be used for more than one thing, and some are even designed to do a wide variety of things. Do you think, while reading the above, I'll have readers thinking, "This doesn't make any sense. What about a Swiss Army knife?" If so, I should definitely get to some re-writing. A footnote, or more than one, is probably a good idea. I know I'm doing a bit of a high-wire act here, trying to leap directly to the consequences (for media) of certain computer science concepts -- without actually explaining the computer science involved. It's an act I'm going to have to keep up for the whole book if the project is going to come off (unless I want to write a book with a bunch of computer science tutorial in it, which doesn't sound as readable for the audience or as fun to write for me). Nick, thanks for your thoughtful comment!

It won’t surprise you to hear that I agree with you entirely. I’m just trying to find an accessible, quick way to introduce people to, in particular, the first two ideas you mention: (1) a general purpose computer is general purpose and (2) this lets it be a platform for the operations of many existing and new types of media.

Obviously, lots of machines can be used for more than one thing, and some are even designed to do a wide variety of things. Do you think, while reading the above, I’ll have readers thinking, “This doesn’t make any sense. What about a Swiss Army knife?” If so, I should definitely get to some re-writing.

A footnote, or more than one, is probably a good idea. I know I’m doing a bit of a high-wire act here, trying to leap directly to the consequences (for media) of certain computer science concepts — without actually explaining the computer science involved. It’s an act I’m going to have to keep up for the whole book if the project is going to come off (unless I want to write a book with a bunch of computer science tutorial in it, which doesn’t sound as readable for the audience or as fun to write for me).

]]> By: nick http://grandtextauto.org/2007/01/30/media-machines/comment-page-1/#comment-106568 nick Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:49:51 +0000 http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1424#comment-106568 This is great to read, Noah. To start, I have a comment on the idea that begins "Media Machines," that computers can simulate other machines. I think there are some important further distinctions to make about the ways in which this can happen. If what I'm suggesting below is too detailed and nuanced to be explored at length in the main text, you may want to at least pursue it to some extent in notes: <ol> <li>A universal computer is capable of computing any function that any machine can compute, given enough time and memory. This generality is what allows a modern computer to do the computation necessary to play nim (Ferranti NIMROD, 1951) and a chess endgame (Torres y Quevedo's El Ajedrecista, 1914), although some early special-purpose computers could do only one of these. A universal computer doesn't have to be a multimedia computer, though.</li> <li>A computer is a metamedium (I know the term from Alan Kay, and don't know if there are earlier uses) that can act as many other sorts of media. This is enabled by digital computing, but it also requires appropriate sound and video hardware. I'm also not sure that digital computing is a necessary condition for a metamedium, although I believe Kay thinks that it is, or at least that the computer is the first metamedium.</li> <li>A subset of a machine's functions can be used to enable it to do more specific things. For instance, like the computer in the example you give, a VCR can also act not only like a movie projector, but also like a tape player. You just turn the video off or play a tape where only audio was recorded.</li> </ol> I guess there are other ways, too: A machine can be a multi-tool or Swiss Army knife, for instance, or it can be a single device that is versatile and can be used in many ways, as with duct tape. I know you are working toward introducing process and the book overall here, but I think that being precise about this could be very useful in showing what thing, or set of things, is new about computing. Thanks for this and the "Authoring Process" section, and good luck... This is great to read, Noah. To start, I have a comment on the idea that begins “Media Machines,” that computers can simulate other machines. I think there are some important further distinctions to make about the ways in which this can happen. If what I’m suggesting below is too detailed and nuanced to be explored at length in the main text, you may want to at least pursue it to some extent in notes:

  1. A universal computer is capable of computing any function that any machine can compute, given enough time and memory. This generality is what allows a modern computer to do the computation necessary to play nim (Ferranti NIMROD, 1951) and a chess endgame (Torres y Quevedo’s El Ajedrecista, 1914), although some early special-purpose computers could do only one of these. A universal computer doesn’t have to be a multimedia computer, though.
  2. A computer is a metamedium (I know the term from Alan Kay, and don’t know if there are earlier uses) that can act as many other sorts of media. This is enabled by digital computing, but it also requires appropriate sound and video hardware. I’m also not sure that digital computing is a necessary condition for a metamedium, although I believe Kay thinks that it is, or at least that the computer is the first metamedium.
  3. A subset of a machine’s functions can be used to enable it to do more specific things. For instance, like the computer in the example you give, a VCR can also act not only like a movie projector, but also like a tape player. You just turn the video off or play a tape where only audio was recorded.

I guess there are other ways, too: A machine can be a multi-tool or Swiss Army knife, for instance, or it can be a single device that is versatile and can be used in many ways, as with duct tape. I know you are working toward introducing process and the book overall here, but I think that being precise about this could be very useful in showing what thing, or set of things, is new about computing.

Thanks for this and the “Authoring Process” section, and good luck…

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