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	<title>Comments on: Split Infinity Game Generation</title>
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	<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/</link>
	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: SteveSegreto</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-382513</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveSegreto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-382513</guid>
		<description>This brings back some memories. :)

The main grid is always 4x4 and has the same 8 row/column headings, giving 16 choices.

So 16 possible subgrids stem from the main grid. The two examples shown above differ on how many rows/columns exist in the subgrids (i.e. the subgrid from naked/physical had 16 choices while the subgrid from machine/physical only had 12 choices).

Also from reading the text above, after the subgrid choice is made, the final 3x3 grid has its rows and columns formed by having the contestants choose variants from computer provided lists one after another.

Then one contestant selects a choice from the row and the other selects a choice from the columns. That is the &quot;game&quot; they compete at.

If you picked reasonably finite values for the length of the final grid lists (say 9 variants each) and required all the subgrids to only be 3x3, then you would need to intelligently select 1400 category headings and 1296 final games could be derived from combinations of them. Of course the first 8 category headings are already selected by Mr. Anthony

4+4=8 categories for the first grid (already defined by the text above), yielding 16 STAGE 1 choices
16 * (3+3) = 96 categories for all the subgrids (assume each one was capped at 3x3), yielding 16*3*3 (144) STAGE 2 choices
144*9 = 1296 categories in the final grid list, though only 144*(3+3)= (864) could actually be placed in 144 3x3 matrices as the row/column headings during STAGE 3. In STAGE 4 that choosing from that final matrix would yield 144 * 3 * 3 = 1296 different games total.

Of course, if you wanted more possible games, you could have variable row/column matrices during STAGE 2 and more than 9 variants in the STAGE 3 list used to form the final STAGE 4 3x3 matrix.

This would indeed be an interesting concept for an MMO, though the sizes of the matrices would probably have to be increased considerably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This brings back some memories. :)</p>
<p>The main grid is always 4&#215;4 and has the same 8 row/column headings, giving 16 choices.</p>
<p>So 16 possible subgrids stem from the main grid. The two examples shown above differ on how many rows/columns exist in the subgrids (i.e. the subgrid from naked/physical had 16 choices while the subgrid from machine/physical only had 12 choices).</p>
<p>Also from reading the text above, after the subgrid choice is made, the final 3&#215;3 grid has its rows and columns formed by having the contestants choose variants from computer provided lists one after another.</p>
<p>Then one contestant selects a choice from the row and the other selects a choice from the columns. That is the &#8220;game&#8221; they compete at.</p>
<p>If you picked reasonably finite values for the length of the final grid lists (say 9 variants each) and required all the subgrids to only be 3&#215;3, then you would need to intelligently select 1400 category headings and 1296 final games could be derived from combinations of them. Of course the first 8 category headings are already selected by Mr. Anthony</p>
<p>4+4=8 categories for the first grid (already defined by the text above), yielding 16 STAGE 1 choices<br />
16 * (3+3) = 96 categories for all the subgrids (assume each one was capped at 3&#215;3), yielding 16*3*3 (144) STAGE 2 choices<br />
144*9 = 1296 categories in the final grid list, though only 144*(3+3)= (864) could actually be placed in 144 3&#215;3 matrices as the row/column headings during STAGE 3. In STAGE 4 that choosing from that final matrix would yield 144 * 3 * 3 = 1296 different games total.</p>
<p>Of course, if you wanted more possible games, you could have variable row/column matrices during STAGE 2 and more than 9 variants in the STAGE 3 list used to form the final STAGE 4 3&#215;3 matrix.</p>
<p>This would indeed be an interesting concept for an MMO, though the sizes of the matrices would probably have to be increased considerably.</p>
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		<title>By: J Bushnell</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-88268</link>
		<dc:creator>J Bushnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-88268</guid>
		<description>Another interesting &quot;game&quot; in a Anthony novel is the &quot;hypnogourd,&quot; a sort of fantasy VR device, where peering into a hole in a gourd transports you into a world full of various dangerous puzzle-challenges.  In &lt;i&gt;Ogre, Ogre&lt;/i&gt;.  The idea of such a thing quite deeply fascinated me when I was younger and reading Anthony novels...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another interesting &#8220;game&#8221; in a Anthony novel is the &#8220;hypnogourd,&#8221; a sort of fantasy VR device, where peering into a hole in a gourd transports you into a world full of various dangerous puzzle-challenges.  In <i>Ogre, Ogre</i>.  The idea of such a thing quite deeply fascinated me when I was younger and reading Anthony novels&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Moriarty</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86414</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Moriarty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86414</guid>
		<description>The only English translation of Das Glasperlenspiel currently in print also happens to be the best: The one by Richard and Clara Winston, first published in 1969.

The 1949 translation by Mervyn Savill is said by Those Who Know to be rather stiff and formal in comparison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only English translation of Das Glasperlenspiel currently in print also happens to be the best: The one by Richard and Clara Winston, first published in 1969.</p>
<p>The 1949 translation by Mervyn Savill is said by Those Who Know to be rather stiff and formal in comparison.</p>
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		<title>By: B Rickman</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86375</link>
		<dc:creator>B Rickman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86375</guid>
		<description>There are several translations of Magister Ludi (The Glass Bead Game), some more readable than others.

One interesting way that The Apprentice Adept dates itself is that while some of Anthony&#039;s games are facilitated by &quot;panels&quot;, there are no video games in The Game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are several translations of Magister Ludi (The Glass Bead Game), some more readable than others.</p>
<p>One interesting way that The Apprentice Adept dates itself is that while some of Anthony&#8217;s games are facilitated by &#8220;panels&#8221;, there are no video games in The Game.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86269</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 05:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86269</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that reference, Brian; here&#039;s a not so elucidating &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Bead_Game&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia article&lt;/a&gt; on it, and here&#039;s a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.strangewords.com/archive/glass.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;better review&lt;/a&gt; of the book. It won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1946!  I&#039;ll have to read it.  

Btw, &lt;i&gt;Xanth&lt;/i&gt; is a different series; &lt;i&gt;Split Infinity&lt;/i&gt; is book one of &lt;i&gt;Apprentice Adept&lt;/i&gt; series.

Also, sorry folks, I made an error in my original post: while I bought virtually all my Piers Anthony novels at the mall at B. Dalton in Raleigh, I just remembered that I got &lt;i&gt;Split Infinity&lt;/i&gt; one evening on a summer vacation to Cape May, NJ, in an outdoor plaza of shops.  Shortly after the bookstore, that same night, one of my younger brothers, who was about 7 at the time, somehow drifted off into the crowd, and went missing for about 15 panicked minutes.  We found him, a bit shaken, but alright, anxiously wandering the maze of shops.  I remember clutching my copy of the book as we searched, and my mother&#039;s grim expression; I hadn&#039;t experienced that kind of creeping fear before, until that night.  I haven&#039;t been back to Cape May since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that reference, Brian; here&#8217;s a not so elucidating <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Bead_Game" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article</a> on it, and here&#8217;s a <a href="http://www.strangewords.com/archive/glass.html" rel="nofollow">better review</a> of the book. It won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1946!  I&#8217;ll have to read it.  </p>
<p>Btw, <i>Xanth</i> is a different series; <i>Split Infinity</i> is book one of <i>Apprentice Adept</i> series.</p>
<p>Also, sorry folks, I made an error in my original post: while I bought virtually all my Piers Anthony novels at the mall at B. Dalton in Raleigh, I just remembered that I got <i>Split Infinity</i> one evening on a summer vacation to Cape May, NJ, in an outdoor plaza of shops.  Shortly after the bookstore, that same night, one of my younger brothers, who was about 7 at the time, somehow drifted off into the crowd, and went missing for about 15 panicked minutes.  We found him, a bit shaken, but alright, anxiously wandering the maze of shops.  I remember clutching my copy of the book as we searched, and my mother&#8217;s grim expression; I hadn&#8217;t experienced that kind of creeping fear before, until that night.  I haven&#8217;t been back to Cape May since.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Moriarty</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86143</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Moriarty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86143</guid>
		<description>Andrew: After that game scholar finishes with Anthony&#039;s Xanth game, perhaps he or she will consider its precedent: Hesse&#039;s Glass Bead Game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew: After that game scholar finishes with Anthony&#8217;s Xanth game, perhaps he or she will consider its precedent: Hesse&#8217;s Glass Bead Game.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86132</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86132</guid>
		<description>[&lt;b&gt;Update&lt;/b&gt;: I just realized I missed scanning in pages 236-7 &#8212; they&#039;re now there.]

You&#039;re probably right that Anthony didn&#039;t necessarily imagine The Game as generated Holodeck-style; for example, the Dust Slide and antique pistols that appear above may have been part of an elaborate game arena, that has all combinations of games &quot;unrolled&quot;.  The antique pistols were presumably placed on a table by an assistant; the Dust Slide was pre-constructed.  If some other players happened to have narrowed down their game to the Dust Slide and were currently using it, you&#039;d have to wait your turn.

But yes, like Josh suggests, one could imagine this being truly generative.  For example the specific options in the third round of choices could vary: instead of snowbanks and limestone cliffs, we could imagine mudslides and jungle trees.  Even the some of the more abstract characteristics could potentially vary; this would exponentially increase the number of game combinations. 

Could a generative game system create a well-balanced, well-designed game?  In my blue-sky imagining of such a game generation system, of course!

What I find really exciting about this vision is how it combines generativity with competition.  Most research into generative stories/games have enough trouble getting the generativity itself to work, leaving little thought to how actually &lt;i&gt;apply&lt;/i&gt; the generativity to entertainment ends.  Here the process of generating a game, the meta-game, is part of the competition itself.  Great design.  

(The whole Proton/Phaze universe is ripe IP for an excellent game/MMO, IMO. I wonder if anyone&#039;s secured the game rights yet.) 

Also, a generative system like this would to some extent be a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tale-of-tales.com/DramaPrincess/wp/?p=44&quot;&gt;collaboration between human players and an AI, to create a new game&lt;/a&gt;.

Noah, thanks for the link to Balsamo&#039;s essay; it didn&#039;t come up in my search because &quot;Anthony&quot; isn&#039;t mentioned in the text (as you say, she&#039;s informally riffing on several sci-fi ideas, not doing an analysis per se, references not strictly required.)  Chris, nope I haven&#039;t read the Perec book, will do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[<b>Update</b>: I just realized I missed scanning in pages 236-7 &mdash; they're now there.]</p>
<p>You&#8217;re probably right that Anthony didn&#8217;t necessarily imagine The Game as generated Holodeck-style; for example, the Dust Slide and antique pistols that appear above may have been part of an elaborate game arena, that has all combinations of games &#8220;unrolled&#8221;.  The antique pistols were presumably placed on a table by an assistant; the Dust Slide was pre-constructed.  If some other players happened to have narrowed down their game to the Dust Slide and were currently using it, you&#8217;d have to wait your turn.</p>
<p>But yes, like Josh suggests, one could imagine this being truly generative.  For example the specific options in the third round of choices could vary: instead of snowbanks and limestone cliffs, we could imagine mudslides and jungle trees.  Even the some of the more abstract characteristics could potentially vary; this would exponentially increase the number of game combinations. </p>
<p>Could a generative game system create a well-balanced, well-designed game?  In my blue-sky imagining of such a game generation system, of course!</p>
<p>What I find really exciting about this vision is how it combines generativity with competition.  Most research into generative stories/games have enough trouble getting the generativity itself to work, leaving little thought to how actually <i>apply</i> the generativity to entertainment ends.  Here the process of generating a game, the meta-game, is part of the competition itself.  Great design.  </p>
<p>(The whole Proton/Phaze universe is ripe IP for an excellent game/MMO, IMO. I wonder if anyone&#8217;s secured the game rights yet.) </p>
<p>Also, a generative system like this would to some extent be a <a href="http://www.tale-of-tales.com/DramaPrincess/wp/?p=44">collaboration between human players and an AI, to create a new game</a>.</p>
<p>Noah, thanks for the link to Balsamo&#8217;s essay; it didn&#8217;t come up in my search because &#8220;Anthony&#8221; isn&#8217;t mentioned in the text (as you say, she&#8217;s informally riffing on several sci-fi ideas, not doing an analysis per se, references not strictly required.)  Chris, nope I haven&#8217;t read the Perec book, will do.</p>
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		<title>By: noah</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86124</link>
		<dc:creator>noah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86124</guid>
		<description>I think the only engagement I&#039;m aware of is Anne Balsamo&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://interactive.usc.edu/members/abalsamo/archives/2006/03/a_pedagogy_for_original_synners_1.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A Pedagogy for Original Synners&lt;/a&gt; -- an evocative mixture of ideas from many speculative fiction sources, used as a way of thinking through current pedagogical questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the only engagement I&#8217;m aware of is Anne Balsamo&#8217;s <a href="http://interactive.usc.edu/members/abalsamo/archives/2006/03/a_pedagogy_for_original_synners_1.html" rel="nofollow">A Pedagogy for Original Synners</a> &#8212; an evocative mixture of ideas from many speculative fiction sources, used as a way of thinking through current pedagogical questions.</p>
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		<title>By: josh g.</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86123</link>
		<dc:creator>josh g.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86123</guid>
		<description>From the text above, this seems more like a taxonomic system than a generative one.  It would be interesting to take the concept and translate it to a truly generative system.  

I wonder, though, could a truly generative system work well in a competitive environment like the one this story describes?  Usually designing a game to be both fair and challenging takes significant time to balance and refine.  A generative system to create new games would probably be easier to apply in an experimental, co-operative environment where people are looking for new experiences and challenges rather than trying to compete for recognition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the text above, this seems more like a taxonomic system than a generative one.  It would be interesting to take the concept and translate it to a truly generative system.  </p>
<p>I wonder, though, could a truly generative system work well in a competitive environment like the one this story describes?  Usually designing a game to be both fair and challenging takes significant time to balance and refine.  A generative system to create new games would probably be easier to apply in an experimental, co-operative environment where people are looking for new experiences and challenges rather than trying to compete for recognition.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2006/06/21/split-infinity-game-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-86101</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 09:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grandtextauto.org/?p=1223#comment-86101</guid>
		<description>Good heavens. That takes me back.

Is this, do you think, a generative system, or a taxonomic system? Are games created to fill in the blanks, or do categories get created simply because games can fit into them?

This is a tangent, but: I don&#039;t know if you&#039;ve read Georges Perec&#039;s &quot;W, or the Memory of Childhood&quot;, which has another take on a society dominated by games (and is divided into two different but interrelated worlds, hm). It would be interesting to compare the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good heavens. That takes me back.</p>
<p>Is this, do you think, a generative system, or a taxonomic system? Are games created to fill in the blanks, or do categories get created simply because games can fit into them?</p>
<p>This is a tangent, but: I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve read Georges Perec&#8217;s &#8220;W, or the Memory of Childhood&#8221;, which has another take on a society dominated by games (and is divided into two different but interrelated worlds, hm). It would be interesting to compare the two.</p>
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