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	<title>Comments on: Swig of Gamer-AIIDE</title>
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	<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/</link>
	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: togos: Boyce-Codd Sweet Place (664)</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-106284</link>
		<dc:creator>togos: Boyce-Codd Sweet Place (664)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-106284</guid>
		<description>[...] f-assed programmer doesn&#039;t make me a Renaissance Man, it just makes me a total ass.   From this game AI conference.Post a new comment)                                       [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] f-assed programmer doesn&#8217;t make me a Renaissance Man, it just makes me a total ass.   From this game AI conference.Post a new comment)                                       [...]</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-59516</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-59516</guid>
		<description>The AAAI (American Association for Artificial Intelligence) news alert service &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aaai.org/aitopics/assets/AIalerts/alert.6.9.05.html#june7a&quot;&gt;picked up the NYT article on AIIDE&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The AAAI (American Association for Artificial Intelligence) news alert service <a href="http://www.aaai.org/aitopics/assets/AIalerts/alert.6.9.05.html#june7a">picked up the NYT article on AIIDE</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-57021</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-57021</guid>
		<description>Our AIIDE paper is now online, &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.interactivestory.net/papers/MateasSternAIIDE05.pdf&quot;&gt;Structuring Content within the Façade Interactive Drama Architecture&lt;/a&gt;&quot;.  Apologies for the delay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our AIIDE paper is now online, &#8220;<a href="http://www.interactivestory.net/papers/MateasSternAIIDE05.pdf">Structuring Content within the Façade Interactive Drama Architecture</a>&#8220;.  Apologies for the delay.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-57019</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-57019</guid>
		<description>Interesting to constrast &lt;a href=&quot;http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/#comment-54714&quot;&gt;Robin&#039;s evaluation&lt;/a&gt; of game AI &quot;in a rut&quot; versus the rosier outlook taken by the NYTimes article.

I&#039;d suggest game AI is not in a rut, per se - instead it&#039;s standing on a slope, part way up a &lt;a href=&quot;http://grandtextauto.org/2005/01/14/curse-the-mountain-not-the-climbers/&quot;&gt;massive mountain&lt;/a&gt;, looking up at the distant peak, gone as far as it can go on foot, and now has to break out the mountain climbing gear and prepare for some very strenous, painful rock climbing.  But imagine the views up there!

Also, a comment on Robin&#039;s point about few women at AIIDE &#8212; that&#039;s very true, but let&#039;s not forget two of the primary voices that have had such an influence on framing, guiding and motivating this work for many researchers, particularly for interactive drama - Brenda Laurel and Janet Murray.  And Marie-Laure Ryan is a newer voice with lots of new excellent analysis as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting to constrast <a href="http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/#comment-54714">Robin&#8217;s evaluation</a> of game AI &#8220;in a rut&#8221; versus the rosier outlook taken by the NYTimes article.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d suggest game AI is not in a rut, per se &#8211; instead it&#8217;s standing on a slope, part way up a <a href="http://grandtextauto.org/2005/01/14/curse-the-mountain-not-the-climbers/">massive mountain</a>, looking up at the distant peak, gone as far as it can go on foot, and now has to break out the mountain climbing gear and prepare for some very strenous, painful rock climbing.  But imagine the views up there!</p>
<p>Also, a comment on Robin&#8217;s point about few women at AIIDE &mdash; that&#8217;s very true, but let&#8217;s not forget two of the primary voices that have had such an influence on framing, guiding and motivating this work for many researchers, particularly for interactive drama &#8211; Brenda Laurel and Janet Murray.  And Marie-Laure Ryan is a newer voice with lots of new excellent analysis as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-55327</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-55327</guid>
		<description>I forgot to say thank you for posting this very interesting article. Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to say thank you for posting this very interesting article. Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-55326</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-55326</guid>
		<description>I have a casual interest in AI so my knowledge in this area is quite limited. It does however seem to me that a deeper resevour of scripting reactions is the key. In a day with such high density of hard-drives I would think developers would be putting staff to work doing nothing but generating insidental, non-demanded reaction-of-user dialog and reaction trees for such insidental conversation. Yes the IF AND OR BUT senerios are important but so is end user variety. Take Everquest 2&#039;s use of spoken dialog, this is noticably finite but the user feels gratefull for the increased variety. HL-2 had a few more responces than ussual and this made for a more immersive game. I have written action fiction and as I generate many differant charactors interacting I realize the bredth of possibilities are astounding. But as a game player I feel perfectly happy to purchase more memory and or hard-drive space if the next game is more immersive. This is a envelope that we will gladly help push, as we are all tired of chasing faster better vidio cards that are outdated in months. And games like Guild Wars show that such expensive cards are not even neccasary. Larger HD and MEM are things that benefit the user while not playing games with more media storage and smoother performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a casual interest in AI so my knowledge in this area is quite limited. It does however seem to me that a deeper resevour of scripting reactions is the key. In a day with such high density of hard-drives I would think developers would be putting staff to work doing nothing but generating insidental, non-demanded reaction-of-user dialog and reaction trees for such insidental conversation. Yes the IF AND OR BUT senerios are important but so is end user variety. Take Everquest 2&#8217;s use of spoken dialog, this is noticably finite but the user feels gratefull for the increased variety. HL-2 had a few more responces than ussual and this made for a more immersive game. I have written action fiction and as I generate many differant charactors interacting I realize the bredth of possibilities are astounding. But as a game player I feel perfectly happy to purchase more memory and or hard-drive space if the next game is more immersive. This is a envelope that we will gladly help push, as we are all tired of chasing faster better vidio cards that are outdated in months. And games like Guild Wars show that such expensive cards are not even neccasary. Larger HD and MEM are things that benefit the user while not playing games with more media storage and smoother performance.</p>
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		<title>By: mark</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-55033</link>
		<dc:creator>mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-55033</guid>
		<description>On Ian&#039;s comments,

(1) I think it depends on how narrow your world is.  If your world in any way includes people, it may be hard to get it just right, I think, because people do all sorts of rather complex things that look weird if almost-but-not-quite right.  People-behaviors also seem pretty intertwined with each other, in the sense that if your characters are realistic humans in a few ways, it&#039;ll be weird if other things don&#039;t exist in your world at all.  Though perhaps you can coax some apart.  A sort of tangential point is that I think there&#039;s a lot of interesting art in the &quot;uncanny valley&quot;.  Whether this art takes the form of games people want to play, I don&#039;t know, but I sure like the prospect of being able to unnerve people.

(2) Frankly, I didn&#039;t think Bing&#039;s talk was that interesting, but that may just be me.  I could summarize most of it as &quot;goddamn, Madden NFL sure does sell a lot of copies!&quot;  It&#039;s a useful reality check, in that Madden NFL 2005 sells such a sheer number of copies that it explains why companies like EA aren&#039;t that interested in taking a chance on more innovative stuff that, even if it &quot;succeeded&quot; by the standards of an innovative game, would probably still make less money than a month&#039;s worth of Madden sales.  The film industry has some similar problems I&#039;d say, but in both industries, simply reminding yourself of the fact that a few blockbusters make a ton of money doesn&#039;t take you much closer towards figuring out how to make something more interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Ian&#8217;s comments,</p>
<p>(1) I think it depends on how narrow your world is.  If your world in any way includes people, it may be hard to get it just right, I think, because people do all sorts of rather complex things that look weird if almost-but-not-quite right.  People-behaviors also seem pretty intertwined with each other, in the sense that if your characters are realistic humans in a few ways, it&#8217;ll be weird if other things don&#8217;t exist in your world at all.  Though perhaps you can coax some apart.  A sort of tangential point is that I think there&#8217;s a lot of interesting art in the &#8220;uncanny valley&#8221;.  Whether this art takes the form of games people want to play, I don&#8217;t know, but I sure like the prospect of being able to unnerve people.</p>
<p>(2) Frankly, I didn&#8217;t think Bing&#8217;s talk was that interesting, but that may just be me.  I could summarize most of it as &#8220;goddamn, Madden NFL sure does sell a lot of copies!&#8221;  It&#8217;s a useful reality check, in that Madden NFL 2005 sells such a sheer number of copies that it explains why companies like EA aren&#8217;t that interested in taking a chance on more innovative stuff that, even if it &#8220;succeeded&#8221; by the standards of an innovative game, would probably still make less money than a month&#8217;s worth of Madden sales.  The film industry has some similar problems I&#8217;d say, but in both industries, simply reminding yourself of the fact that a few blockbusters make a ton of money doesn&#8217;t take you much closer towards figuring out how to make something more interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Bogost</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-54717</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Bogost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-54717</guid>
		<description>This is great stuff. Of course, it just makes me wish I had more detail. Couple questions.

(1) About Will&#039;s comment on the future behavioral uncanny valley... what&#039;s the context here? It strikes me that this problem mainly takes form when unbounded... but within a space of defined expressive goals, such as one or three single behaviors, does the same problem persist? Granted, the game&#039;s frame would have to do a damn good job divesting the player of interest in other forms of behavior. Wow, I hope at least some of that made sense.

(2) I&#039;ve heard most of what Bing had to say before, save the seemingly important &quot;AI matters.&quot; What else did he say about this?

Incidentally, I used to work two doors down from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/photos/aiide/pages/DSC06509.htm&quot;&gt;this British Car Clinic&lt;/a&gt; Robin photographed. Tip: don&#039;t buy a British car. This place was always overflowing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is great stuff. Of course, it just makes me wish I had more detail. Couple questions.</p>
<p>(1) About Will&#8217;s comment on the future behavioral uncanny valley&#8230; what&#8217;s the context here? It strikes me that this problem mainly takes form when unbounded&#8230; but within a space of defined expressive goals, such as one or three single behaviors, does the same problem persist? Granted, the game&#8217;s frame would have to do a damn good job divesting the player of interest in other forms of behavior. Wow, I hope at least some of that made sense.</p>
<p>(2) I&#8217;ve heard most of what Bing had to say before, save the seemingly important &#8220;AI matters.&#8221; What else did he say about this?</p>
<p>Incidentally, I used to work two doors down from <a href="http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/photos/aiide/pages/DSC06509.htm">this British Car Clinic</a> Robin photographed. Tip: don&#8217;t buy a British car. This place was always overflowing.</p>
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		<title>By: Dirk Scheuring</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-54716</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirk Scheuring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2005 09:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-54716</guid>
		<description>If you have trouble imagining what kind of a fixed point function I&#039;m thinking of - I see it as an equivalent to the use of &quot;&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transwiki:Understanding_Comics&quot;&gt;The Gutter&lt;/a&gt; in comics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you have trouble imagining what kind of a fixed point function I&#8217;m thinking of &#8211; I see it as an equivalent to the use of &#8220;<a HREF="http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transwiki:Understanding_Comics">The Gutter</a> in comics.</p>
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		<title>By: Dirk Scheuring</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-54715</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirk Scheuring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-54715</guid>
		<description>Thanks a lot for posting this; very instructive.

As usual, I like Will Wright&#039;s ideas a lot. &quot;Drama is built on elaborate causal chains&quot; - how very true. As long as &quot;Why?&quot; doesn&#039;t work on &lt;i&gt;everything&lt;/i&gt;, there&#039;ll be no drama, IMO. Faking it - for instance, by treating &quot;Why?&quot; as &quot;a provocation&quot; - is not enough. Why? It limits character development tremendously. The result is likely to be a neurotic character. There&#039;s no way to get depth like that.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
observation #6: there are many applications of AI that are not opponents or human characters
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;Right again, Robin.&quot; SciFi, Horror, Fantasy are media genres chock full of non-human intelligent characters. Even &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.theofficialjohncarpenter.com/pages/themovies/ch/ch.html&quot;&gt;cars can be Subjective Characters&lt;/a&gt;. Put that in a game and sell it. 

I bet that the &quot;meta AI&quot; is going to be distributed across character AIs. Each character needs a director &quot;built in&quot; (a &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://twomorrow.twoday.net/&quot;&gt;robot soul&lt;/a&gt; ;-); I don&#039;t see a place for an external &quot;manager/director&quot; module. Rather, I see a hierarchy of characters. That, and a simple function at the fixed point. It is a matter of combining and nesting Storyforms.

Bing Gordon: &quot;Gaming gets Pixared&quot;. Yes, I think this will happen, but (I hope) on various scales. There&#039;ll be smaller and bigger Pixars. Also, the Pixar content creation model might work in a distributed form - are &quot;developer farms&quot; really necessary? If they are, the Big Money guys are really at an advantage. Academics - could you please do some science on that?

But &quot;engineers’ revenge&quot;? Only if the engineers get really good at using Storyforms, or some other means of formalizing the procedural creation of meaning. Does he expect &quot;engineer&#039;s revenge&quot; to happen at Pixar?

I wonder whether &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~script/scripteasenwn.html&quot;&gt;ScriptEase&lt;/a&gt; will be a solution for &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; authoring problems. It looks like it supports feeding a traditional &quot;n++&quot; content model. I&#039;ll need a model, method, and tool(s) for creating &quot;n^2&quot; type content on a large scale.

Ah, and Chris Crawford - &quot;we fake thinking logically&quot; - I seem to have observed this, too.

But: if we succeed in training young people to be both full-assed artists and full-assed programmers, are we in for a world of total double asses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot for posting this; very instructive.</p>
<p>As usual, I like Will Wright&#8217;s ideas a lot. &#8220;Drama is built on elaborate causal chains&#8221; &#8211; how very true. As long as &#8220;Why?&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work on <i>everything</i>, there&#8217;ll be no drama, IMO. Faking it &#8211; for instance, by treating &#8220;Why?&#8221; as &#8220;a provocation&#8221; &#8211; is not enough. Why? It limits character development tremendously. The result is likely to be a neurotic character. There&#8217;s no way to get depth like that.</p>
<blockquote><p>
observation #6: there are many applications of AI that are not opponents or human characters
</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;Right again, Robin.&#8221; SciFi, Horror, Fantasy are media genres chock full of non-human intelligent characters. Even <a HREF="http://www.theofficialjohncarpenter.com/pages/themovies/ch/ch.html">cars can be Subjective Characters</a>. Put that in a game and sell it. </p>
<p>I bet that the &#8220;meta AI&#8221; is going to be distributed across character AIs. Each character needs a director &#8220;built in&#8221; (a <a HREF="http://twomorrow.twoday.net/">robot soul</a> ;-); I don&#8217;t see a place for an external &#8220;manager/director&#8221; module. Rather, I see a hierarchy of characters. That, and a simple function at the fixed point. It is a matter of combining and nesting Storyforms.</p>
<p>Bing Gordon: &#8220;Gaming gets Pixared&#8221;. Yes, I think this will happen, but (I hope) on various scales. There&#8217;ll be smaller and bigger Pixars. Also, the Pixar content creation model might work in a distributed form &#8211; are &#8220;developer farms&#8221; really necessary? If they are, the Big Money guys are really at an advantage. Academics &#8211; could you please do some science on that?</p>
<p>But &#8220;engineers’ revenge&#8221;? Only if the engineers get really good at using Storyforms, or some other means of formalizing the procedural creation of meaning. Does he expect &#8220;engineer&#8217;s revenge&#8221; to happen at Pixar?</p>
<p>I wonder whether <a HREF="http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~script/scripteasenwn.html">ScriptEase</a> will be a solution for <i>my</i> authoring problems. It looks like it supports feeding a traditional &#8220;n++&#8221; content model. I&#8217;ll need a model, method, and tool(s) for creating &#8220;n^2&#8243; type content on a large scale.</p>
<p>Ah, and Chris Crawford &#8211; &#8220;we fake thinking logically&#8221; &#8211; I seem to have observed this, too.</p>
<p>But: if we succeed in training young people to be both full-assed artists and full-assed programmers, are we in for a world of total double asses?</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2005/06/05/gulp-of-gamer-aiide/comment-page-1/#comment-54714</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jun 2005 06:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=822#comment-54714</guid>
		<description>Robin has written some good &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/blog/index.php?p=41150&quot;&gt;commentary&lt;/a&gt; on the conference, and some &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/photos/aiide/index.htm&quot;&gt;photos&lt;/a&gt; from her nifty camera, including several of Michael&#039;s nifty new goatee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin has written some good <a href="http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/blog/index.php?p=41150">commentary</a> on the conference, and some <a href="http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/photos/aiide/index.htm">photos</a> from her nifty camera, including several of Michael&#8217;s nifty new goatee.</p>
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