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	<title>Comments on: Reversing the Spam Cannon</title>
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	<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/</link>
	<description>A group blog about computer narrative, games, poetry, and art.</description>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/comment-page-1/#comment-1288</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=329#comment-1288</guid>
		<description>I should have mentioned that intrepid souls are &lt;a href=&quot;http://antispam.1337robotics.com/&quot;&gt;taking action&lt;/a&gt; against IRC-based spambots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have mentioned that intrepid souls are <a href="http://antispam.1337robotics.com/">taking action</a> against IRC-based spambots.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew the Mad Devil-sticker</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/comment-page-1/#comment-1289</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew the Mad Devil-sticker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=329#comment-1289</guid>
		<description>One of my current project ideas with email spam, though it&#039;s hard to see how it might work with blog spam, is to keep a global database of how much we trust a host. For example, evidence of a windows worm in my apache logs or on a port that I listen on to trap worms should force whatever trust-rating I currently have assigned to be much lower. Similarly, the score from spamassassin and the information from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ian/sauce/&quot;&gt;SAUCE&lt;/a&gt; about syntax errors and other problems with the mail transaction should adjust this value. This is something I&#039;ve mentioned to Hanna before now, as I need to think about how the statistics are going to work.



It seems to me that in the coming years, this kind of approach is going to be the only one that can work in any sensible kind of a way.



The problem is that this works well for services where you expect a certain set of things to be the case, but in the comments, you will expect a set of workstation hosts, and a very small number of server machines (eg. proxies).



It is perhaps worth applying something like bayesian spam analysis or markov chain analysis to decide on the validity of  the comment for you, and set a threshold. This would, of course, mean a corpus of spam comments and a corpus of real comments is needed, and that you need to disable your temporary measures, and just delete the comments.



Either that, or, for the moment screen everything before it appears, and file it for your training. The whole thing is a problem, and distrusting people until proven otherwise, however unsavoury this may be in many ways, is probably the only way forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my current project ideas with email spam, though it&#8217;s hard to see how it might work with blog spam, is to keep a global database of how much we trust a host. For example, evidence of a windows worm in my apache logs or on a port that I listen on to trap worms should force whatever trust-rating I currently have assigned to be much lower. Similarly, the score from spamassassin and the information from <a href="http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ian/sauce/">SAUCE</a> about syntax errors and other problems with the mail transaction should adjust this value. This is something I&#8217;ve mentioned to Hanna before now, as I need to think about how the statistics are going to work.</p>
<p>It seems to me that in the coming years, this kind of approach is going to be the only one that can work in any sensible kind of a way.</p>
<p>The problem is that this works well for services where you expect a certain set of things to be the case, but in the comments, you will expect a set of workstation hosts, and a very small number of server machines (eg. proxies).</p>
<p>It is perhaps worth applying something like bayesian spam analysis or markov chain analysis to decide on the validity of  the comment for you, and set a threshold. This would, of course, mean a corpus of spam comments and a corpus of real comments is needed, and that you need to disable your temporary measures, and just delete the comments.</p>
<p>Either that, or, for the moment screen everything before it appears, and file it for your training. The whole thing is a problem, and distrusting people until proven otherwise, however unsavoury this may be in many ways, is probably the only way forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Jill</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/comment-page-1/#comment-1290</link>
		<dc:creator>Jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=329#comment-1290</guid>
		<description>Nick, this is an excellent discussion of spam, and in principle, I agree that penalising the spammers is the way to go, rather than crippling public discussion in an attempt to keep spammers out. I guess as a not-programmer I have no idea how hard something like that would be to implement though.



I have seen a couple of other ideas to limit spamming, though I suspect they all to some extent fall into the cripple-ourselves category:



&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://huminf.uib.no/~jill/archives/net_culture/greylisting.html&quot;&gt;Greylisting, which my university uses for email spam&lt;/a&gt;. Except that relies on &quot;real&quot; mailservers resending messages after ten  minutes, which human posters don&#039;t do but spambots could easily do, so really, it&#039;s out.

&lt;li&gt;Things like TypeKey or Blogger, where commenters can only leave their URL when they&#039;re already registered in the Blogger or TypeKey databases. Obviously it&#039;s a disadvantage to have to register like that - unless you happen to already have an account, as I found I did when I first tried to comment to a Blogger blog. Blogger blogs let non-registered commenters post as anonymous which is OK. But then again the only URL they seem to allow from comments is the one from the comment to the commenter&#039;s Blogger profile, if it exists, and from there there&#039;s a link to their homepage, so it&#039;s not good enough.

&lt;li&gt;PGP signatures required for comments (&lt;a href=&quot;http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000320.html&quot;&gt;suggested in Feb&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://scott.yang.id.au/archives/000568.php&quot;&gt;more comments more recently&lt;/a&gt;, and there&#039;s a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.srijith.net/codes/openpgpcomment/&quot;&gt;Movable Type plugin for it&lt;/a&gt;, it seems) - I like the idea of PGP but have never bothered to get myself a code or whatever it is you get, and assume most people are like me. So it would be likely to limit comments like TypeKey, Blogger and other authentication systems, which would suck.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;



I sure know I&#039;m sick to death of spam. Currently, every time I look at my blog it&#039;s full of spam that has to be deleted. Sure it only takes five minutes with MT-Blacklist but that&#039;s five minutes too much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, this is an excellent discussion of spam, and in principle, I agree that penalising the spammers is the way to go, rather than crippling public discussion in an attempt to keep spammers out. I guess as a not-programmer I have no idea how hard something like that would be to implement though.</p>
<p>I have seen a couple of other ideas to limit spamming, though I suspect they all to some extent fall into the cripple-ourselves category:</p>
<ol>
<li><a href="http://huminf.uib.no/~jill/archives/net_culture/greylisting.html">Greylisting, which my university uses for email spam</a>. Except that relies on &#8220;real&#8221; mailservers resending messages after ten  minutes, which human posters don&#8217;t do but spambots could easily do, so really, it&#8217;s out.</p>
</li>
<li>Things like TypeKey or Blogger, where commenters can only leave their URL when they&#8217;re already registered in the Blogger or TypeKey databases. Obviously it&#8217;s a disadvantage to have to register like that &#8211; unless you happen to already have an account, as I found I did when I first tried to comment to a Blogger blog. Blogger blogs let non-registered commenters post as anonymous which is OK. But then again the only URL they seem to allow from comments is the one from the comment to the commenter&#8217;s Blogger profile, if it exists, and from there there&#8217;s a link to their homepage, so it&#8217;s not good enough.
</li>
<li>PGP signatures required for comments (<a href="http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000320.html">suggested in Feb</a>, <a href="http://scott.yang.id.au/archives/000568.php">more comments more recently</a>, and there&#8217;s a <a href="http://www.srijith.net/codes/openpgpcomment/">Movable Type plugin for it</a>, it seems) &#8211; I like the idea of PGP but have never bothered to get myself a code or whatever it is you get, and assume most people are like me. So it would be likely to limit comments like TypeKey, Blogger and other authentication systems, which would suck.</li>
</ol>
<p>I sure know I&#8217;m sick to death of spam. Currently, every time I look at my blog it&#8217;s full of spam that has to be deleted. Sure it only takes five minutes with MT-Blacklist but that&#8217;s five minutes too much.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/comment-page-1/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=329#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>Matthew and Jill, thanks for the comments. I wish I could have developed a more specific proposal. I know the little I do about the operation of spambots from folklore and scattered places on the Web; I unfortunately couldn&#039;t find and good resource about how they operate, either for my benefit or to provide a link. It&#039;s certainly easier said than done, but I hope there are ways to turn spammers&#039; and attackers&#039; systems against them.



In the meantime, I hope it helps for us to at least be aware that blacklisting and registrations schemes of various sorts, even if they seem the only tenable, immediate option, are chipping away at an originally uncensored and free forum for communication - they aren&#039;t just an inconvenience for blog admins. I know that I&#039;ve missed legitimate emails and have restricted other people&#039;s access to my email address because of a deluge of email spam; I really hope comment spam doesn&#039;t end up explicitly or implicitly shutting down blogs as a channel for speech and discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew and Jill, thanks for the comments. I wish I could have developed a more specific proposal. I know the little I do about the operation of spambots from folklore and scattered places on the Web; I unfortunately couldn&#8217;t find and good resource about how they operate, either for my benefit or to provide a link. It&#8217;s certainly easier said than done, but I hope there are ways to turn spammers&#8217; and attackers&#8217; systems against them.</p>
<p>In the meantime, I hope it helps for us to at least be aware that blacklisting and registrations schemes of various sorts, even if they seem the only tenable, immediate option, are chipping away at an originally uncensored and free forum for communication &#8211; they aren&#8217;t just an inconvenience for blog admins. I know that I&#8217;ve missed legitimate emails and have restricted other people&#8217;s access to my email address because of a deluge of email spam; I really hope comment spam doesn&#8217;t end up explicitly or implicitly shutting down blogs as a channel for speech and discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/comment-page-1/#comment-1292</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=329#comment-1292</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a shame we can&#039;t just find the culprits and put them in stocks. I often wonder how effective their spam really is. Wouldn&#039;t their money effort be better spent just taking out a yellow pages ad so that people in the market for &quot;penis enlargement&quot; or &quot;rape sex videos&quot; could just let their fingers do the walking?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a shame we can&#8217;t just find the culprits and put them in stocks. I often wonder how effective their spam really is. Wouldn&#8217;t their money effort be better spent just taking out a yellow pages ad so that people in the market for &#8220;penis enlargement&#8221; or &#8220;rape sex videos&#8221; could just let their fingers do the walking?</p>
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		<title>By: jill/txt</title>
		<link>http://grandtextauto.org/2004/05/17/reversing-the-spam-cannon/comment-page-1/#comment-1293</link>
		<dc:creator>jill/txt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=329#comment-1293</guid>
		<description>&lt;trackback /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;penalise the spammers, not the community&lt;/strong&gt;
In a discussion of anti-spam remedies over at Grandtextauto, Nick argues that attacking spam by crippling blogs and other arenas for public discussion is not solving anything: instead we should devise anti-spam tactics that penalise the spammers. Would...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<trackback /><strong>penalise the spammers, not the community</strong><br />
In a discussion of anti-spam remedies over at Grandtextauto, Nick argues that attacking spam by crippling blogs and other arenas for public discussion is not solving anything: instead we should devise anti-spam tactics that penalise the spammers. Would&#8230;</p>
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